The hypocrisy of "Staatsräson"

00:00:17: Welcome to the Heist Podcast.

00:00:19: I'm Ben Schumann-Solar.

00:00:21: In this episode, heist founding editor Peter Matthews speaks with Alon Zahr.

00:00:25: Alon is a German Israeli researcher, filmmaker and strategist.

00:00:40: We reached out to him because he published a report with the Rosa Luxemburg Foundation in July called, The Campaign Against Unra and the Palestinian Right of Return In Germany.

00:00:49: UNRA is United Nations Relief & Works Agency for Palestine Refugees And in this report explains context behind historical German support for UNRA How they became the biggest UNRA donor state the recent network of Israel-aligned organizations in Germany that are working to overturn this support.

00:01:11: Peter Nalon also talked about the twentieth century geopolitical context here, and then they hone it on Germany's role in particular—the evolution of the term Staatsregion–and finally bring home Berlin where we see its implications for local politics too!

00:01:27: Okay before I play the interview though you can become an accomplice And that would help us extend our cash runway and keep this thing going.

00:01:38: Thanks so much!

00:01:39: Here's Peter Matthews, and Alon Sahar.

00:01:42: Okay So Alon sahar welcome to the heist podcast.

00:01:46: You run a sub-stack called Start Skates on Monitor... ...and you wrote big report recently for the Rosa Luxemburg shift room.

00:01:55: Could you just quickly introduce yourself?

00:01:57: Tell who are what your do.

00:01:59: Yeah sure I grew up in Israel.

00:02:05: I even served in the military and the Givati Brigade, which meant back then serving in Gaza between two thousand three and two thousand six.

00:02:20: And it was actually one of the last soldiers in Gaza or so i thought because we were the ones to close the gate behind the Netsarim settlement evicted.

00:02:36: and then in two thousand fourteen When protective edge the war on Gaza started I became active in a group called breaking the silence of veteran soldiers who Exposed their realities off.

00:02:53: They're occupied territories So they take responsibility for what?

00:02:58: Dave, they were part of but they also Do educational and political work based on it.

00:03:07: So I became a volunteer, then I worked there.

00:03:10: We moved with my girlfriend to Germany in twenty-twenty that was not so politically active But after the current government formed this was two thousand twenty-two Mm-hmm?

00:03:25: I basically joined with a couple of Israelis who live here.

00:03:29: we had a demonstration under the title of No business as usual with Israel in front of the foreign ministry.

00:03:41: And this group kind of faded after just one demo, but we reconvened a year later... ...after October seven and we formed an organization that is called Israeli's Fear Freedom, Israeli for Peace And the idea was to show that there's a different Israeli voice, that demands... ...that Germany would upheld its values and it commitment international law.

00:04:11: Would not be a spoiler in EU terms of Israel but still framed around identity right?

00:04:20: It is Israelis for peace.

00:04:24: So thats kind limiting type of messages and type of work that you do.

00:04:37: And after a year-and-a-half, I sensed there's basically kind of huge gap because what many people call the Israeli lobby... I frame it differently.

00:04:51: I called it Israel aligned.

00:04:52: groups or networks that work in Germany are playing an empty field.

00:05:01: So I figured starting something modest, like a micro think tank to address these narratives with first of all identified them when they are in the public and sometimes through leaks that i get.

00:05:19: And by writing counter narratives

00:05:24: this is what I started the

00:05:25: stats on monitor basically you know year ago.

00:05:29: And I wonder just for people, I mean... ...I think most people will have come to understand this idea of Staatsgesant.

00:05:36: Like a raison d'etre for the German state A fundamental reason For one kind of fundamental reasons for the State To be in that way.

00:05:44: But they must've heard That first after October seventh.

00:05:47: but i wonder if you could put In context The origin Of that term and explain a little bit about ways the German-Israeli relationship has developed over the last so many years.

00:06:02: Yeah, I'll be the spoiler here because... Many people see it as a kind of value based commitment that Germany made to the Jewish People and

00:06:19: as an extension

00:06:20: to Israel based on its

00:06:23: Historical responsibility.

00:06:24: Historical

00:06:24: responsibility emanating from their genocidal work in the Holocaust, but Daniel Mawwetzky wrote this amazing book called Whitewashing and State Building that basically argued I think very well That it was a material need by Germany

00:06:53: By West Germany, I guess.

00:06:56: Of course to join the community of nations.

00:07:01: but basically it means you know becoming a member of the UN having influence and power

00:07:08: Right.

00:07:08: so your saying that wasn't like disinterested act But something they did in order return to enhance their own soft power in some kind of way.

00:07:20: Not just soft power, you know?

00:07:22: The EU was first and foremost a trade project.

00:07:28: so back then in the post-World War II period one had to commit certain values to become part of it.

00:07:41: It was very much emergence of neoliberal world order as well financially but You had to establish that, you're something else other than Nazi Germany.

00:07:52: And so they cut a deal with Israel basically giving material goods... ...to the state and to Holocaust survivors for this absolution basically when it was crucial for both states.

00:08:07: Israel is in process of state building.

00:08:10: Germany was receiving a lot of assistance from the US, which Israel didn't get as much by the way back then.

00:08:18: And so this kind of support was channeled through Germany...

00:08:24: I think that's really important in that longer history.

00:08:26: but even just these words doesn't come into.

00:08:29: Angela Merkel says it in her speech right?

00:08:33: It appears before some SPD politicians actually used to First, either as Statsresone or Reson d'Otto.

00:08:44: And then Merkel started using it in... ...in two thousand eight in a speech at the Knesset.

00:08:51: One must say Israel was a bit different back then.

00:08:55: It's led by Eau-Dolmert.

00:08:58: I'm not trying to argue that Israel is a saint.

00:09:01: Don't get me wrong.

00:09:03: I very much acknowledge Dispossession in the Nakba and sixty seven as well, but still Israel was a different kind of country And Merkel tried to solidify this value-based support for Israel.

00:09:26: now I have to say.

00:09:28: I'm not sure what was her motive To do that.

00:09:31: There was no geopolitical need to do that.

00:09:34: Germany doesn't need Israel anyway and her voter base doesn't seem to particularly care about what she says in the Knesset or not.

00:09:48: So it's kind of beyond me, maybe it was just a personal conviction?

00:09:52: I'm not sure.

00:09:54: I mean i think that interesting because there is sort these different periodizations.

00:10:01: Welcome culture of twenty fifteen was then this you have this idea of imported anti-semitism.

00:10:06: You know the idea that these Muslim Repugies are going to be the ones bringing anti-Semitism to Germany where it was presumably absent before.

00:10:16: So he published his report in beginning of July which Was called The Campaign Against UNRA, the UNRWA.

00:10:26: so I want to unpack and explain what all is.

00:10:29: but But yes, can you tell us first what were you looking at with this report?

00:10:36: Yes.

00:10:36: So first of all the full name is The Campaign Against Anra and Palestinian Right Of Return in Germany And that's quite important because it's how this campaign is manifested In Germany.

00:10:52: but This campaign Is basically transnational.

00:10:56: It goes on in many European states and in the US And the other part is The Right of Return, which is a real goal behind this campaign.

00:11:10: I would argue including some participants in the network with our... You

00:11:16: mean that it's to abolish or get rid of the Palestinian right?

00:11:20: Yeah

00:11:21: exactly!

00:11:25: Maybe I'll share just the kind of, the inciting event or serious events that let me to write it.

00:11:31: Yeah exactly!

00:11:32: Or basically can you...I wanna hear that but Can You Just Tell Us Very Basically What Is UNRWA?

00:11:38: Because people might not know what this organization is But It Was A Set Up Just After The NACBAR In nineteen forty nine

00:11:48: or so on.

00:11:50: So UNRW is the UN Relief and Work Agency which was set up, not immediately after the Nakba.

00:11:58: There were several attempts to try and find a solution... ...to the quote-unquote problem of the refugees because during the Nakbah seven hundred fifty thousand Palestinians fled.

00:12:17: what became Israel?

00:12:21: but So what's the

00:12:24: purpose of that?

00:12:24: Yeah, yeah.

00:12:25: The UNRWA started as a project after several attempts to try and find political solutions either get refugees back which Israel wouldn't allow or have them settle in host states be they it could be Lebanon Syria Jordan mostly these States some Iraq and so on.

00:12:56: And that didn't work out as well too, right?

00:12:59: Because the armed states said not only do we don't want refugees here.

00:13:08: We want a Palestinian state.

00:13:12: and so there was this decision in the UN called the one nine four resolution to basically give a rite of return and their descendants.

00:13:27: And so this decision, along with the need in the host states to provide some work and relief basically created UNRWA right?

00:13:44: Increasingly The Work part was kind of reconfigured.

00:13:51: it started as doing like these huge public infrastructure projects, right?

00:13:58: Kind of New Deal-ish.

00:14:01: So what were they doing building roads or...

00:14:03: Building roads pipelines and so on.

00:14:07: that didn't really work well for a long time And also the refugee problem seemed it's not gonna be solved anytime soon and so education became kind of the primary goal and increasingly became some sort of a quasi-state for the Palestinians in each of these host states.

00:14:36: Okay?

00:14:37: Now, after nineteen sixty seven, Anra right Israel conquers The West Bank, the Sinai Desert Golan Heights Gaza Strip Of course is Jerusalem And suddenly Israel or Israel-controlled territories are also a whole state.

00:15:01: And Israel had to decide what it should do with all these Palestinian refugees, of course they didn't want to annex them and have them become citizens... ...and Israel even more generally didn't decide what to do with the territories at first!

00:15:21: It took government change to get where we are now, but back then it was really even in the liberal Zionist camp which was backed by the ruling party.

00:15:37: There were a lot of options on the table.

00:15:40: I don't think any of them was annexing or giving quote unquote Palestinians as real state But some of the options and tables were different forms of autonomy.

00:15:54: But that would require Israel to take care of these people, and that would be a huge financial burden.

00:16:01: And so on.

00:16:03: So Anwar seemed like the perfect solution.

00:16:06: you keep this temporary right?

00:16:09: This needs to be emphasized.

00:16:12: Anwar was set as a temporary solution for an agency relatively easily be solved, right?

00:16:25: Because Israel was very small back then and so on.

00:16:29: But the solution didn't come.

00:16:31: And so the idea was to at first vote on their mandate of UNRWA every three years because it was temporary.

00:16:43: Until today you have General Assembly in United Nations vote on UNRW's mandate to renew it every three.

00:16:54: Now after sixty seven Moshe Dejan, which was a minister in the government but most importantly very much hailed former general of Israel.

00:17:10: Was promoting the idea that honor stays even into Israeli controlled Palestinian territories basically and servers this quasi-state there.

00:17:25: And then they

00:17:25: become the authority in some kind of way.

00:17:28: sorry.

00:17:28: They've come to kind of governing authority

00:17:31: not governing authority.

00:17:33: I would call it State supplement mm-hmm, that's right because they don't govern They only provide services

00:17:45: mm-hm.

00:17:45: so there kind of a civil yeah

00:17:47: Yeah, and they provided education humanitarian aid And sometimes infrastructure, hygiene related issues and housing in the refugee camps.

00:18:08: But this is important because when they... I mean jumping forward a lot but when October seventh happens there's allegations that people working for UNRWA are then complicit in these attacks.

00:18:18: So I think it's important for people to know exactly what the role of it is within...

00:18:24: Yeah, so if we want a really simplified things—so there are all those services that i just listed.

00:18:33: but I think the main issue you remember work W and ANRA kind-of transformed into the educational division Right?

00:18:46: So most of the employees, if I'm not mistaken that Anra employs our teachers.

00:18:55: Because these people do not have a state to take care them and even in Israel's interest they would be.

00:19:05: schools are not in the streets right.

00:19:09: so that paradigm was sustained Roughly around until two thousand seventeen in Israel, but in two thousand says seventeen Netanyahu starts attacking unranked public Knowing the Trump wants to Nick's defense of our basically which In the beginning of twenty eighteen he did following the demands of Jared Kushner.

00:19:37: and And they all goes too full.

00:19:39: Two thousand eighteen it doesn't freeze them He holds him completely.

00:19:44: And then the

00:19:46: U.S.,

00:19:46: which provided a third of Anra's funding, Which is by the way Provided by donor states.

00:19:54: it's voluntary It's not... The UN General Assembly Decides on Anra mandate But the UN itself does Not provide the Funding for Anra Right?

00:20:07: and Western States because Of their Colonial past Because connection with Israel and their interest of stability in the region were the primary donors of UNRWA.

00:20:22: And Germany, being one big donor among them right?

00:20:26: But

00:20:27: at that moment if time is crucial Merkel's in power Trump decides to halt funding.

00:20:36: then Germany steps-in increases funding now.

00:20:41: Israel in that case is governed by Netanyahu back then.

00:20:47: Interestingly, unbeknownst to most of the public sends messengers to Trump to try and dissuade him from defunding Anra.

00:20:57: because Netanyah wants stability not because he cares about Palestinians but for his stability it's staying in power.

00:21:05: And after he fails doing this, he send messenger through Germany to increase funding for UNRWA.

00:21:14: And that's how Germany becomes UNRW's largest donor state now.

00:21:20: it did Increase its funding along the decade beforehand, but in

00:21:26: significantly more significantly

00:21:28: increased The funding afterwards because he wanted to restore the stability of the organization after USD funding.

00:21:37: so the Tanya was playing a double game when he attacked Anna in public, but behind the scenes.

00:21:45: he really needs Anna.

00:21:48: And so only after October seventh when Netanyahu has a different coalition right with these far-right ministers, Benghvi and Smotriyich... ...and no moderate right or centrist party like in past Netanyah governments.. ..And After October Seventh When allegations of Anna Worker's participating in the massacre, on October seventh horrendous attack led by Hamas.

00:22:23: He joins the network basically which started its work a long time earlier and I I'm trying to paint a picture where it started in two thousand fourteen.

00:22:40: It started earlier, but in twenty-fourteen i would argue Started being again focusing on germany starting being bit more coordinated and Increasingly efficient.

00:22:55: yeah that's interesting i mean.

00:22:57: And then?

00:22:58: I think the one of those things is good That your report points out and you're able To explain this kind Of how exactly This kind of uh Israeli far-right narrative ends up in Germany, even in Berlin within these very kind of centreist or centre left being repeated by the centreists and centre left institutions.

00:23:19: Can you describe exactly what you found out that incited your work on this report?

00:23:28: Yeah, let's maybe start yeah with the triggers for me because speaking about Germany is complex.

00:23:36: I'll try to do it through how I Revealed It basically.

00:23:40: so i started writing.

00:23:42: starts on monitoring.

00:23:43: June twenty five was The first edition already.

00:23:47: in the second Edition this Is like a Monthly?

00:23:51: Newsletter

00:23:52: newsletter.

00:23:54: i Realized different Actors are attacking anra from different positions and with different mandates also.

00:24:04: And

00:24:05: so that was one thing, but the other thing is who these actors are right?

00:24:11: So you had Nafo which some sort of a small advocacy group Which stated target is peace in the Middle East Right?

00:24:24: Nafo short for Nahost Frieden's form

00:24:29: A Middle East peace forum.

00:24:30: Peace

00:24:30: Forum, but just to say it's a very much right-wing aligned positions.

00:24:40: everything to do with the two state solution that they supposedly support is kind of nonsense when you look at the policies they promote.

00:24:48: so there against recognizing the Palestinian State They're against banning settler products and so on.

00:24:56: So nothing really substantial there.

00:25:00: And on the other hand, you had an organization like the Amadeu Antonio Stiftung which is a anti-racism group which liberals love citing their reports and I very much get... I for example was working in project related to the Halle attack and they did brilliant work on that I have to say.

00:25:23: And this is why even in my eyes, as someone who's very aware and very attentive to promoting what some call pro-Israeli narrative—I called them Israel-aligned narratives—I was really surprised to see that they issued a report on the summer of twenty five claiming anti-Semitic.

00:25:57: Now, the organization is publicly funded... The person writing forward for this report is Felix Klein, the coordinator of combating anti-semitism and a nice chunk in an interview with Dina Rovner, legal advisor of UN Watch.

00:26:26: Now, I know UN Watch kind of well for my activities in Israel and Palestine where we saw them as part of a right-wing transnational network.

00:26:37: Right!

00:26:38: UN Watch aren't the UN organization.

00:26:40: they're an organization which sort of monitors the UN and criticizes it whenever they do anything that they think is like... you describe better.

00:26:48: Yeah so UN watches present themselves As The Watchdog Of The United Nations trying to measure the UN's activities by their own yardstick.

00:27:03: That is how they define themselves, but if you look at policies that promote their focus and so on... They do touch upon China & Russia & human rights violations in Iran

00:27:15: etc.,

00:27:16: But it very much a kind of neo-conservative aligned organization which really mostly focuses on policies vis-a-vis Israel, right?

00:27:30: And they would point out for example how there is a bias which they would call sometimes anti-Semitic against Israel in the United Nations.

00:27:44: But they would not point out, for example... The veto that the United States constantly uses Which it's much more legally binding than the general assembly, right?

00:27:59: And so they bias that their real meaningful bias for Israel is pro-israel in the United Nations.

00:28:06: They would not you know say this is uncool.

00:28:10: Right That's not what they do and a very similar manner.

00:28:14: That's how NGO monitor works which is another Organization in there in the network in this category that I call narrative originators, which create the reports for policymakers to show there's a bias.

00:28:34: That Israel is too heavily scrutinized while terror organizations infiltrate United Nations organizations and so

00:28:44: on.".

00:28:45: So what you're finding in your report?

00:28:49: That's far right, but people that are advancing a kind of right-wing Israeli line as ceding narratives in certain areas which is then getting picked up by very centrist or mainstream German organizations.

00:29:03: Which they're promoting these same narratives using the same sources and so on.

00:29:07: Yeah So... The idea was when I started writing their report First of all there was this realization, right?

00:29:15: On Amadeo Antonio Stiftung and that many actors are participating.

00:29:19: And then I pitched the idea to Rosa Luxembourg to write a report on it!

00:29:24: It's supposed to be much smaller because i didn't know how deep the rabbit hole is

00:29:29: Right?!

00:29:30: Then he grew and grew... ...and realized many actors were participating in this.

00:29:37: Okay, so for example a small relatively small medium group called Neuer Soziale Plastik.

00:29:44: It's an artist organization trying to promote the inclusion of Jewish artists basically in anti-BDS organization that does you know promote Jewish art and so on.

00:29:58: but That is their whole goal in my interpretation, and they fight off BDS.

00:30:05: They participate in that kind of debate against right-of-return, BDS... And the founders of those organizations are also co-founders for other much more active organization on this issue like Maasiyot which its primary target is Dinan Denakma.

00:30:24: basically Maasya means fairy tales in Hebrew ...and their whole purpose is denied in Acqua, right?

00:30:32: So you have the same people establishing different organizations.

00:30:37: One of them looks really liberal.

00:30:40: Of course we need Jewish out to flourish and Germany sounds like a good cause.

00:30:45: on the other hand You ever very hawkish organization like Marciot which was started by again not exactly The Same People that there's shared co-founders between their organizations.

00:30:59: so anywhere between you and watch, which is a very established organization working for more than thirty years transnationally.

00:31:07: And these local groups with ANRA different in their priorities they all participated in this campaign one way or another against ANRA.

00:31:19: the right of return are only against one of them .And This Is A Very Good Way To Win Over A Broad.

00:31:30: a broad support from politicians, even from centrist and left-leaning parties like the Greens or Espade.

00:31:38: Right?

00:31:38: And even small parts of Die Linke because you have different constituencies.

00:31:45: supposedly I would argue that attack.

00:31:49: these positions are policies of Germany supporting UNRWA From different facets of society.

00:31:57: right it looks reasonable.

00:32:02: Now, combine that with the Staatsrezone... That's explosive!

00:32:08: I mean, i think it's important that the work like yours does point out.

00:32:11: That even describing something as the starts goes on It makes it seem sort of immovable and baked in almost As if its part Of The Constitution or whatever.

00:32:19: but what you show is actually all These things are kind of moving And exactly What this term means has changed over time?

00:32:27: And...and..I Think thats why Its Important to unpack these specific networks In Exactly how they're all kind of operating.

00:32:37: Maybe you could just quickly describe the reaction to The Report.

00:32:40: I mean how it was received.

00:32:41: quite well, It was publicized a lot and do You think that there's any way To kind of unpick some Of these networks And move things in more positive direction?

00:32:55: Yeah Well first of all the status on itself i Think has already suffered A Lot of critique as a concept that became unconditional support for Israel.

00:33:14: So I even saw that Mertz stopped using it as a concept, right?

00:33:21: This was in the fall of ... four or five not sure... Even Felix Klein said we have to rethink stanzas on.

00:33:33: this was unthinkable.

00:33:36: Statsworth's own was kind of their whole being in a way and not for Merz, but... But for Philkstein.

00:33:41: For sure.

00:33:42: So I'm not sure they're wholly genuine about what it should mean In terms of policy?

00:33:47: But even the fact that he said publicly means something is shifting now.

00:33:54: They saw There's a huge gap between their policies And what the public is thinking and voting because there was an election in the middle.

00:34:03: I think the party that suffered most from it was The Greens, right?

00:34:08: Because The Greens were first of all in a coalition That supported Israel throughout the war until elections And they...I would argue They have very much value driven voter base Which because they are so susceptible to the stanzas on narrative, at least some of them were also susceptible to see what's going in Gaza.

00:34:46: Suddenly this very uplifting concept you know?

00:34:53: To them... Of protecting Jews and protecting Israel suddenly seemed detrimental to the Palestinians And I think that shifted Some of the voters probably to delinquent which were more progressive on these issues.

00:35:14: So I think we should Pay attention to that To the public.

00:35:21: but dad also shows you.

00:35:23: The power of the network's that i'm describing That even though public opinion had changed dramatically Against israeli policies and against german german in support of that The political elite didn't change and I would argue the main reason for that not.

00:35:46: The only one is the network

00:35:48: Mm-hmm,

00:35:49: right?

00:35:49: Some with other some we'd call it the lobby Right now.

00:35:56: i think this is crucial to understand That unlike in the u.s.

00:36:02: Where the Lobby mainly a pack Through A lot of money Right?

00:36:10: Millions and millions of dollars.

00:36:14: Run candidates, And then could potentially run competing candidates to you if your not in line with the policies they demand.

00:36:26: you support which is pro-Israeli In my eyes are counterproductive.

00:36:35: Let's put it this way Unlike in US where money really a big issue there In Germany, it was very much value-based.

00:36:47: Now increasingly and this is with more the lobbying groups or advocacy groups like Elnit which are hardcore advocacy groups they increasingly focus on material elements because they see that they can no longer only argue around values.

00:37:12: So increasingly you see them supporting weapon deals between Israel and Germany facilitating meetings with defense Contractors from israel, and germany Health tech agriculture Cyber right.

00:37:35: these are kind of the four fields that Elnett is and Israel it's focusing on to try and create more business, civil and defense dependencies.

00:37:49: Because if you're running out of the moral argument at some point... ...the voter base will change that also in political elite or at least some of it.

00:38:01: So they are increasingly focusing on material leverages To create dependencies.

00:38:08: so Germany would have a harder time criticizing not just in words, but actions Israeli policies.

00:38:22: So you think that's the shift.

00:38:23: it is going less from this sort of playing on this idea German responsibility and more trying to tie up key areas industry?

00:38:32: It still

00:38:33: doing both But within hard core advocacy groups.

00:38:38: big part what they do.

00:38:39: delegations to Israel.

00:38:42: Now, you can see what I'm talking about through the schedules of the delegations.

00:38:47: So they would visit Yad Vashem.

00:38:51: They would now also visit the Nova Party Memorial site But they would also meet IDF generals and they would actually visit factories or defense contractors and health tech factories, it's really in the program.

00:39:16: And some of these companies then become sponsors to Elnit events in Germany when they have all this strategic dialogue conventions.

00:39:27: so you can see them even on the sponsor list.

00:39:31: Specifically we saw funding scandal over anti-Semitism funding, which was put out through the CDU operators who then distributed this money to very well bypassing various laws and two very politically interested recipients.

00:39:51: Which has caused a massive scandal in Germany.

00:39:55: I wonder if you could talk about yeah just how specifically Berlin and in the Berlin political system some of these networks operate?

00:40:04: So you have groups, for example like Elnit which is an advocacy organization suddenly campaigning with their Fragon-Mauer project.

00:40:17: With posters around Berlin inviting people to also go into the website and read kind of.

00:40:26: it's a Q&A project I would argue.

00:40:30: educate immigrants about how close Judaism and Islam is.

00:40:38: Like what are the differences between kosher and khala?

00:40:41: Seems like a harmless question, right but when you go into their website there's also a question Is Israel committing a genocide?

00:40:51: And the answer is

00:40:54: No A resounding

00:40:55: no.

00:40:56: Nothing is going on in the ICJ.

00:40:58: It not even mentioned.

00:41:01: So these kinds of projects Are funded even before the scandal, right?

00:41:07: Then when this scandal happens these organizations and initiative are suddenly become an issue of due diligence.

00:41:15: Yes!

00:41:15: The scandal is that they didn't follow the correct procedures or whatever.

00:41:19: you know.

00:41:19: it's not... Yeah

00:41:20: no part.. Part of the reason some people did'nt recommend them would get it And they got it nonetheless.

00:41:27: were That Right?

00:41:29: But They Did Get It Nonetheless Even Before This candle and this candle would not.

00:41:35: if this wouldn't happen probably it Would continue?

00:41:41: And so there's this element of already existing groups for example the central right now working with the ADL Anti-defamation League which is an American organization Which Supposed to deal with anti semitism But increasingly became a pro-Israel lobby group, basically.

00:42:06: Which is very aggressive and uses surveillance tactics against anyone who's pro-Palestinian.

00:42:14: Okay!

00:42:14: So maybe just tell people where they can find your work And to support you at StartScreen on Monitor?

00:42:20: Or yeah... If people want hear more then follow your work.

00:42:23: Where do they find you ?

00:42:25: The best way that it through Substack.

00:42:27: We have StartScreens On Monitor And, yeah.

00:42:32: One could become a paid subscriber to support my work and if you don't want to do that You can just follow it for free.

00:42:40: Okay all right thanks very much.

00:42:42: Thank-you guys.

00:42:45: Thanks For Listening To The Heist Podcast!

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00:43:01: Leave us a review in wherever you're listening, whichever place you listen to podcasts.

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00:43:17: Otherwise we'll be back in two weeks with another episode.

00:43:19: see ya then.