From Electric Cars to Tanks

00:00:00: And then there's a photograph of Leo Patzweig tank.

00:00:03: It is standing in the factory, and behind it you see trains so that you can kind-of see contrasts with one people we interviewed who used to work there but still works.

00:00:14: as they said before were building things where people could be transported in now are building things killing

00:00:22: them.

00:00:35: Welcome To The Heist Podcast.

00:00:37: I'm Ben Schumann Stoller.

00:00:39: In this episode, heist founding editor Peter Matthews talks to investigative reporter Lea Faut about her reporting earlier this year for German national radio in Gürlitz and Osnabruck where two factories are being repurposed for the German military.

00:00:54: Instead of electric cars and trains which they used to build their building tanks –the German Leopard II or Leopard Zwei–and other military components Peter and Leia talk about how the communities, cities, unions, workers there are responding to this new era of German investment in defence-and arms manufacturing.

00:01:14: Now where did all come from?

00:01:16: Well three days after Russia invaded Ukraine in twenty two.

00:01:20: then Bundeskanzler Olaf Scholz announced a Zeitentwende –a changing of times.

00:01:26: It amounts hundreds billions of Euros.

00:01:28: since that have put aside in Zondervermügen what they call special budgets especially put aside for defense spending.

00:01:36: Plus all this is happening in the context where Germany's auto industry has been struggling, For example it was reported recently that Volkswagen will fire a hundred thousand people on next few years.

00:01:47: So what's happening at these factories right now shows us how things stand This result of both Germany economic issues and renewed investment into its military.

00:01:57: One note before you hear interview though We recorded Peter and Leia in May this year.

00:02:01: And since then, a few things have changed.

00:02:03: the VW factory an Osnup book that they talk about is not going to produce components for The Israeli Iron Dome.

00:02:09: They talked about so but that deal was cancelled.

00:02:12: still That Factory looks certain to produce arms In one form or another starting next Year.

00:02:16: it's just Not clear yet exactly what they'll be making.

00:02:19: Okay don't forget if you want To support our local journalism and hear more stories from Berlin that matter to the whole world You can become An accomplice and help us keep Our worker-owned magazine Going.

00:02:28: Supporting Heist is just nine euros a month.

00:02:31: You can sign up at heisberlin.com.

00:02:33: Thanks!

00:02:34: Here's Peter Matthews and Lea Faut.

00:02:39: As well as talking about Berlin stories, we want to bring our listeners sort of relevant interesting stories from across Germany And that means today We've got a guest who has made the documentary for German National Radio.

00:02:50: They're part of a berlin based collective called Rahn Recherche.

00:02:54: Lea thanks for coming very much.

00:02:58: Well you went to visit a factory where we see playing out the change in German policy that's become known as The Titan Vendor, the kind of changing of the times when it regards to militarization.

00:03:10: So Germany has been taking factories which used make buses or trains and turning them into military production.

00:03:19: so yeah welcome to the podcast.

00:03:22: thanks for coming.

00:03:24: what is your program about?

00:03:28: Goerlitz and Osnabrück to have two examples of this trend in Germany that factories turn into armament factories.

00:03:38: So the one at Goerltz used to build trains, quite famous ones.

00:03:43: they're called Doppelstoktsüge which are like

00:03:46: double decked trains yeah?

00:03:48: The

00:03:48: red ones exactly.

00:03:50: you see them.

00:03:50: it's a regional And they're quite famous and even, um... They built a lot of these trains also to export them.

00:04:00: It's been one hundred seventy-six years that we were building them.

00:04:06: so they are just switching now to build parts off the tank The famous Leopards Weibpanzer.

00:04:12: So it is a tank unfortunately I have say its quite famous in Germany.

00:04:18: Also because there was huge debate about this.

00:04:22: Yes or no, they're going to deliver it to Ukraine which in the end did.

00:04:27: But in two thousand and twenty-three there was a huge debate on this because that first heavy weapon were sent to Ukraine where always had doubt about should they actually send these kind of heavy weapons to Ukraine?

00:04:43: That could mean their entering war

00:04:47: as more participants.

00:04:49: rather.

00:04:50: So that was the debate, and that's how the Leopards-Weierpanzer became a bit famous.

00:04:54: And so KINDES is the company that's building these tanks... ...and in Gerlitz the factory which built double deck trains now builds parts of this tank!

00:05:07: Yeah, and so can you tell us what was it like to go to?

00:05:09: girl?

00:05:09: It's I mean as you said in your thing these trains are quite famous.

00:05:12: They were also exported the countries around the world Ghana Indonesia.

00:05:16: I think he said in Europe in Europe port.

00:05:18: So yeah, I think that was one thing that I liked in your documentary.

00:05:23: You're talking two people who had worked at the factory for years and his parents.

00:05:27: maybe he'd work to the factory.

00:05:28: I mean, it's been a really long history there.

00:05:30: so yeah can you tell me what was that atmosphere like?

00:05:33: You specifically went to Gerlitz.

00:05:35: is that correct?

00:05:35: Yeah my colleague Paul Weggerer who went to Osnabrück.

00:05:41: in neither of cases we could enter the factory actually.

00:05:45: So then not this real inside but forbidden to enter Um, but we were in front of the factories trying to talk to the workers that were coming out.

00:05:55: And it was also quite telling that people are coming from the factory mostly said I can't say anything about this.

00:06:04: so you're asking them what do you think?

00:06:05: About this change this conversion two armament and they said up i'm not allowed is to talk or they just said I don't want a talk on.

00:06:13: then some would still answer back.

00:06:15: there wasn't an atmosphere of tension.

00:06:20: That's one thing we could grasp, and we couldn't enter the factory.

00:06:24: but there is a photograph at the beginning in the year of twenty-five where Olaf Scholz then still chancellor went to this factory publicly declare that this armament company will now Build tanks there, and then there's a photograph of a leopards fight tank.

00:06:48: It's an exhibit just but it's standing in the factory.

00:06:51: And then behind that you see the trains The double-deck train.

00:06:54: so you kind of see the contrast?

00:06:57: And somehow there is nothing more to add Just to think that okay they were building something.

00:07:01: well one of our One of the people that we interviewed who used to work then who still works their set.

00:07:09: Okay before we were building things to where people could be transported in and now we're building things that are killing people.

00:07:18: And then this one picture, you can kind of see it.

00:07:21: so...

00:07:25: It seems like a silly question maybe but what is Leopard II tank?

00:07:29: Do you know exactly what goes into making it?

00:07:32: and also when they leave the factory who uses them?

00:07:36: In

00:07:42: Germany we say Kampfpanzer, which means that there are different kinds of weapons who were more offensive or more of an offensive kind.

00:07:50: And Kampfpanza really means it goes to the battle and... It's

00:07:54: on a front line?

00:07:56: Yes!

00:07:59: As I mentioned before, it became famous in twenty-twenty three because people were discussing if it should go Ukraine.

00:08:08: And I think the question, where do they go?

00:08:10: is really interesting because of course Germany says it's a German production.

00:08:16: They say we have a lot of control and rules about where its going.

00:08:21: but just yesterday Kim Jong Un opened an exhibition.

00:08:26: there was a Leopard II tank And he was very proud and said that they kind of managed to take it from the Ukraine war, which is not certain if that's true.

00:08:38: But the fact is that he has a Leo Pazweid tank in North Korea... ...and I found that funny because there barely any country where you could say more clearly that Germany or the German government would consider an enemy and have their tanks.

00:08:58: It's not even that important how Kim Jong-un got this tank.

00:09:03: Maybe he got it for real in the Ukraine war, maybe he managed to buy through some intransparent way We don't know.

00:09:12: but the fact is can always end up someone else hand.

00:09:16: There no control and transparency about where these weapons go.

00:09:21: And there another example.

00:09:23: Um, there's a Reinmetall is also producing all kinds of weapons

00:09:28: and right now like the largest military production firm in Germany

00:09:32: exactly.

00:09:34: And they were found some parts of their arms where found on Russian drones?

00:09:41: They said we didn't do that.

00:09:46: it must be some subcontractor who sold to another subcontrector.

00:09:52: As a result, Rheinmetall produces built parts of weapons that end up in Russian drones.

00:09:59: So here we are like the statements of German government saying oh where have it all under control?

00:10:07: We just do that for our own defense.

00:10:09: well no its not true going anywhere.

00:10:12: Yeah I mean and also interesting because as part this kind famous Titan vendor Germany reversed its kind of long-standing post war policy, not sending arms to active war zones.

00:10:25: And so that meant I think certainly they could arm Ukraine and also arm Israel.

00:10:30: but then it's interesting for me i didn't realise.

00:10:33: you say the parts or components in them are ending up officially prescribed enemies Germany... sell to Amsterdam, North Korea or Russia directly.

00:10:44: But nevertheless as a result of this manufacture it does kind end up there.

00:10:49: that's really interesting and I also wanted because people might ask like you know what is the alternative here?

00:10:56: And i think your reporting does tackle that especially in Osnabrut case.

00:11:02: where was idea?

00:11:03: maybe they could instead?

00:11:06: I think it's tanks they're making there, but you know.

00:11:08: They could be making e-buses or doing part of the kind green mobility transition.

00:11:13: Do You Think That The Decision To Remilitarize And Convert These Factories Into Military Production Is Like A Deliberate Political Choice and which is like also a choice not to take another path for example to make Green Technology?

00:11:30: Yeah Absolutely So.

00:11:31: Osnabrück It'S A Little Different From The Case In Girlits.

00:11:35: They are already building the parts of Leopards by tanks.

00:11:39: In Osnabrück, it's still a car factory from Volkswagen but they're about to organize and arrange that there will be takeover... It would be by Iron Dome like this.

00:11:53: so it wouldn't be iron dome israelic weapon that we'll build then.

00:11:58: The missile defense shield or whatever?

00:12:00: Exactly yeah.

00:12:02: And so that was decided recently.

00:12:06: But in Osnabrück, it's not yet... It didn't happen yet!

00:12:09: So there are still protestors trying to hinder this and they're totally done.

00:12:19: let say.

00:12:20: There is a possibility of change.

00:12:23: we don't know.

00:12:32: building buses that were also used for public transport, mini-buses.

00:12:38: So there's already the technical ability to build something meant for public transportation.

00:12:47: and of course it is a political decision this parallel between two cities.

00:12:53: because where does the public money go?

00:12:59: What budget do we have?

00:13:01: So the budget, the Sondervermogen special budget was meant to finance military spending and also other spending.

00:13:10: so what they pretended somehow is that say ah!

00:13:14: We're going spend more money on everything public transport

00:13:18: infrastructure.

00:13:19: exactly The thing if you look at numbers.

00:13:23: A special budget is rising for public transport, but the regular budget that was meant to finance public transport going down.

00:13:33: It's dropping.

00:13:34: so as a result all in all the budget for public transportation is dropping whereas actually military spending is duplicating and they're upcoming five years more than duplicating Actually.

00:13:48: So we see clearly there are political decisions in financing weapons and not public transport, actually lowering the budget of public transport.

00:13:58: So it is clearly a political decision.

00:14:00: And that's also what people in the factories told us.

00:14:04: or I mean we were NOT IN THE FACTORIES but PEOPLE FROM THE FACTORY TOLD US That... Of course in GERLITS they preferred to build trains But there was just no budget for this.

00:14:19: It's a political and public choice to not finance more trains, which is absurd because we would need that for ecological mobility.

00:14:29: But it clearly isn't in the priorities of German

00:14:33: politics.".

00:14:42: They say, well our key role is just to protect jobs.

00:14:47: But do you feel that they are conflicted?

00:14:51: Do you feel like we're trying push in a different direction or their focus more-or less in line with the

00:14:56: companies?".

00:14:58: Yeah it really depends on whom your talking too and there's lot of different levels.

00:15:04: so first of all The strongest union in these technical and factory jobs is Ege Metall.

00:15:15: They are very strong in Germany, they have a lot of power but you also see that there's a strong hierarchy where the opinions differ depending on their hierarchy.

00:15:31: It seems that Ege Metall even arranged or was helping to arrange the takeover in Gölitz.

00:15:38: They wanted the KNDS, the armament manufacturer... ...to come there and save jobs.

00:15:46: but then we also talked with a person from EgeMetal who is actually working at the factory And he was organizing the union locally.

00:15:56: He said he didn't feel respected by his superiors in Ege Metall.

00:16:03: He had a different opinion on that, so we absolutely prefer to build

00:16:09: trains.".

00:16:11: In the end... ...he also argued for him.

00:16:13: it's more important to have a job.

00:16:15: So there are really different positions and I think what is interesting recently was because of Osnabrück.

00:16:28: Some EgeMetal workers gathered and they made a public letter where they signed with their real names saying that they don't want an armament, like a conversion to armaments.

00:16:42: So it was gathering of workers from Volkswagen and several people from Ege Metal.

00:16:50: so It would be interesting if see them gather enough people put pressure on the higher-placed people and Ike Metall.

00:17:01: And i suppose yeah that's another question about like because we think about these things as very kind of national, it is sort of interaction between countries but actually affects specific places.

00:17:13: you went to Gerlitz and Osnabrück.

00:17:16: what are debates there happening in these towns?

00:17:22: Between Gerliz a difference.

00:17:27: So in Gerlitz, there was not much protest and... Do

00:17:33: you think that's because the decisions already made?

00:17:35: They're already making the components

00:17:36: somehow yet.

00:17:37: but even back then they seemed to be a lot of protests.

00:17:42: But it is true that decision went public like this and there was no time for the protest to form, that's what they told us.

00:17:52: The people who tried to organize a protest.

00:17:56: but all in all yeah even People in the factory would say well I don't care What i'm building here?

00:18:05: I just care for having a job.

00:18:07: some peoples had things Like This not All of them And an Osnabrück.

00:18:11: I think it is different because Activists groups had more time, so my colleague Paul was in Osnabrück accompanying two of these activists.

00:18:22: And they went... They were on the streets talking to people not just to other people at the factory but also to people from the city who told them about this and discussed it.

00:18:33: Of course there are a lot different opinions.

00:18:34: Some people support the idea for an armament in Germany But at least there is discussion or debate over public space And these activists are also doing several little like putting protest banners, doing whatever some gatherings in front of the factory to talk to their workers there.

00:18:54: I think that helps draw attention on this and public attention... ...and provoke a debate to make it happen.

00:19:06: I think that's important.

00:19:07: so something will move, but in the end we also have to see.

00:19:11: it is up to EgeMetal.

00:19:14: their conversion to an armament factory.

00:19:23: And what about the politics within Germany?

00:19:26: I mean, it feels like almost every major party in Germany has been behind.

00:19:39: Some of you'd be surprised to think that the greens, for example were so in favor of arms production when there seems to this alternative path a kind energy transition.

00:19:50: And I suppose how.

00:19:53: but also Germany has been sort struggling.

00:19:55: it's worrying about its auto about his car manufacturing and so on.

00:19:59: So as opposed question is like How much of these transitions do feel Real concerns about defence and how much is there some kind of like economic opportunism or opportunism?

00:20:13: We see a opportunity in the struggling economy to find this growth sector.

00:20:18: And let's invest in that.

00:20:21: It's very good question, it was difficult answer I think so.

00:20:27: they have several levels and i think Like some individuals In Germany people who we talked with are honestly worried about wars, and they honestly think that more weapons will help.

00:20:43: And then I think there's also some politicians who really think that but it is very hard sometimes to distinguish if they actually think its useful or because of economic profit.

00:21:00: And I think that it's kind of mixed up because we also have to see the weapon industry has a very strong lobby and they have direct context for politicians.

00:21:11: So, um... It might be these two arguments will just mix-up in the head of a politician who thinks its good for this one big company or several big companies' weapon manufacturers.

00:21:26: but it's also good because we need to defend ourselves.

00:21:30: So I think that might be mixed up and i'm never quite sure how honest is, of course there are a lot studies cases in history where you can see usually owning more weapons and arming the country isn't helpful for peace which seems... logical, but it's unfortunately not.

00:21:56: Some people think that because you have weapons... ...you can threaten other countries and then they won't even dare to attack you.

00:22:05: But in fact if one country starts arming itself than others will do also And it means we just have more Weapons In The World and heavier ones.

00:22:17: So the kind of wars That Will Take Place are Just More Terrible

00:22:23: I mean, and then also want to ask just specifically about the kind of iron dome production.

00:22:27: Do you think that one could see why maybe the Leopard II tanks would be more popular?

00:22:35: because the Ukrainian war is seen as a kind of just wars defending against this aggression?

00:22:42: But it's also true.

00:22:44: Germany is now, I think, the second largest arms supplier after The United States to Israel building the components of this missile system, do you think that when production gets associated with these more controversial conflicts?

00:23:00: That's a status if whole Titan vendor changes.

00:23:05: Yes and it is very interesting what actual government wrote in its coalition agreement because sure this Titan vendor back then was to say we need help our allies send weapons everywhere.

00:23:21: And now in the actual coalition agreement of CDU and SPD, they say we want to focus more on Germany's economic interests when it comes to Armament.

00:23:34: So

00:23:36: often

00:23:36: he says that It is more about this than help others.

00:23:41: Of course you can also doubt back then if was really just for helping because there are numbers who show Already in two thousand and twenty three Ukraine was not the first country to get weapons.

00:23:54: Weapons are primarily sold to Saudi Arabia, India and United Emirates.

00:24:01: I mean we know what kind of wars Saudi Arabia is doing And so even the discourse back then in Twenty-Twenty Three.

00:24:10: You could say it's a bit hypocritical because It wasn't only help others.

00:24:15: But now they openly said that it should be more focused on the German profit.

00:24:20: So yes, they give the answer themselves.

00:24:25: actually now.

00:24:27: and so yeah after making these two documentaries what's sort of one piece of your reporting or image or moment that stays with you?

00:24:42: I think we picked out two cities, Osnabrück and Görlitz.

00:24:47: But they're really just two examples of a trend in Germany where a lot of factories that used to build cars or trains will convert to armament.

00:25:03: There's also a company named Liebherr in Rostock who is now starting building parts of tanks, and then even the CEO actually of KNDS which is one of the biggest weapon companies.

00:25:18: He's called Frank-Hohenwarte.

00:25:20: he used to be a manager in the car industry and now he's in the weapons industry.

00:25:25: so these two cities are just too small examples.

00:25:35: obvious when we see the budget that I explained before, where okay.

00:25:41: The military spending is extremely high and then others drop.

00:25:48: so yeah i think thats what stays with me.

00:25:52: um...I also..i think it's interesting because some of-someof the people That We talked to said well we need To be able to defend our country.

00:26:06: But it's also, I mean even if you took that let say selfish perspective to just think of how can we survive.

00:26:16: Even then its not necessarily consistent because If your living in a city with big armament factory You will be one the targets and there is war for real.

00:26:30: So even this perspective, that doesn't really make sense.

00:26:34: And I mean everyone has their opinion.

00:26:38: but of course it's a kind of scary idea that everywhere in Germany they're producing now weapons and i think what one very symbolic thing also that i found striking is that Volkswagen used to produce weapons under the Nazi regime And in Osnabrück, they're kind of turning back to that now.

00:27:06: Because they are not just telling their factory... ...to a company and then there's weapons to be built.

00:27:13: They making joint ventures with these companies.

00:27:15: so.. ..they going back to this.

00:27:20: The post-war policy of not exporting weapons or Germans Aversion to military production came from them.

00:27:28: a place, right?

00:27:29: It didn't come from nowhere.

00:27:30: it came from the experience of The Second World War and so on.

00:27:32: So its like...it does always carry this kind of darker legacy I guess.

00:27:37: Yeah

00:27:39: Okay well thanks very much.

00:27:40: i think that's great.

00:27:41: Maybe there was one thing.

00:27:42: you can tell us anything You'd like to tell about Rande Recherche Your Berlin based collective making radio documentaries.

00:27:52: What else could we say?

00:27:54: Yes All in all, we have four journalists.

00:27:58: So on this specific topic it was three of us working on it and yeah... We're a collective but actually not only doing radio were publishing for several media um.. But we just started!

00:28:10: And there will be more to come.

00:28:11: Lea from Landrecherche thanks very much for coming.

00:28:17: Thanks!

00:28:19: They're going to be doing some interesting investigations.

00:28:27: We'll be back with another episode in two weeks, and the meantime send us tips, send us ideas, send your feedback.

00:28:32: really we'd love hear what you think of a podcast so far.

00:28:35: our email is hello at heisperlin.com.

00:28:38: Bye.