How high would you get?

00:00:00: Literally the first talk I walked into, which was at very end of this talk by... He's a biohacker and he had a man up on stage.

00:00:11: The man you can imagine looking very stoic as this man just injected something in to his hand!

00:00:18: And i believe it is something to do with NFTs.

00:00:20: that feels a little wild in twenty-twenty six or something like open doors?

00:00:25: I really wasn't sure.

00:00:26: but okay we're for an interesting ride.

00:00:42: Welcome to the heist podcast.

00:00:43: I'm Ben Schumann-Stohler.

00:00:45: Today is a conversation with me and Lily Johnston, writer in Berlin.

00:00:49: We commissioned her to write about The Trip Expo which happened here in Berlin from the fifteenth through the seventeenth of May at Funkhaus.

00:00:57: You can find her whole feature on HeistBerlin.com And i will put link there for sure.

00:01:03: The trip expo was billed as Europe's biggest event for psychedelic science and quote unquote human flourishing.

00:01:10: According to its website, it had fifteen thousand visitors.

00:01:13: So it was a big event and maybe even a big success.

00:01:16: I spoke with Lily about her time there.

00:01:18: It seems like quite a wild time.

00:01:21: There was drumming...there was biohacking..There were lots of drugs....there was partying.

00:01:27: But yeah what are the wider implications Of this human flourishing expo in Berlin?

00:01:32: Is is on brand for berlin.

00:01:34: Berlin has definitely had an alternative and rather druggy reputation, but it also has something in common with the expo's commercial focus.

00:01:42: And many vendors that were there selling something beyond healing properties of a psychedelic let say So what does this mean when subculture becomes THE culture for example?

00:01:54: And before I play the tape, I want to remind everyone that every contribution to us here at Heist helps us extend our cash runway and survive longer.

00:02:02: So if you can please consider becoming an apprentice for ninety bucks a year or nine euros a month Or just sign up at heisberlinne.com for free If you haven't yet All right Here is me Ann Lilly Johnson.

00:02:16: Hi, I'm Lily.

00:02:17: I am a journalist from the UK and live in Berlin.

00:02:22: This Is The First Feature That I've Written For Heist

00:02:25: Amazing.

00:02:26: So what do you remember?

00:02:27: Like, What were your main impressions?

00:02:28: What was the vibe like?

00:02:30: paint the picture a little bit capture the atmosphere for people who maybe didn't read the article or weren't there.

00:02:35: Yeah I mean going into it looking at the website in advance.

00:02:39: It was this very strange combination of trying to be quite professional but then something just being slightly off and In advance i was looking at this thinking okay This is going to be a bunch of sort of bio-hackers, supplement grifters.

00:02:58: People who think you can cure cancer by taking mushrooms or whatever and those people were certainly there but it was more of complex experience than I'd initially predicted.

00:03:15: But yeah, stepping through into the expo for the first time.

00:03:18: If you've been to Funkhouse before it's like this very grand building and in the main hall there was this Expo Hall.

00:03:26: as you can imagine if you're gone a jobs fair or business expo is that setup?

00:03:31: but the strange thing with most of the stalls.

00:03:35: they had sort of rugs everywhere and beanbags.

00:03:39: And there was someone like with a gong, and they were trying to do some sort of rhythmic chanting meditation.

00:03:47: but then you're just in this really corporate space.

00:03:50: so already it's just so jarring visually.

00:03:54: what is going on?

00:03:55: You said that the article one of first things we saw somebody implanting chip into something else.

00:04:01: Yes!

00:04:01: Literally The First Talk I Walked Into which this, he's a biohacker and... He had a man up on stage.

00:04:13: The man was you can imagine like t-shirt chain suit jacket sunglasses on Like baseball capon looking very stoic as this man just injected something into his hand.

00:04:25: And I believe it was something to do with NFTs which feels a little wild in twenty twenty six or Something that you could open doors?

00:04:32: i really wasn't sure but We're in for an interesting ride.

00:04:36: Wow, okay was it loud?

00:04:39: Like when you walked into the hall and kind of picturing like a Roman carnival... It's

00:04:47: very hushed!

00:04:49: The main sort-of hall in Funk House used to be this big DDR recording studio And its just absolutely massive and grand And because of that, it doesn't have proper seats.

00:05:00: So people are sort of sat on the floor.

00:05:02: The lighting is very dim.

00:05:03: It feels like you're going to be seeing a classical concert or something.

00:05:07: But instead there's this man up on stage with medical equipment.

00:05:11: Um

00:05:12: so he was very hushed.

00:05:13: but then the second he injected everyone erupted into applause and There were lots throughout evening.

00:05:18: People impromptu cheering.

00:05:21: You don't get that at the job expos, I guess.

00:05:23: You

00:05:23: do not get it in a job expose?

00:05:25: No.

00:05:25: Although on Green Week you can hear like horse races there's funny stuff.

00:05:34: What question did you go into trip wanting to answer?

00:05:38: There was couple of things i'm curious about.

00:05:40: The first one is who this for?

00:05:44: Because it very perfectly says on its website That It Is For Everyone Which leads you thinking what kind people are paying money To Get Tickets?

00:05:51: And then also, what's it doing in Berlin?

00:05:54: Particularly with the way was kind of marketed and some other people there.

00:05:57: It felt very San Francisco techie to me which does make sense in a direction that Berlin has been going recently.

00:06:06: but yeah I'm curious why is this in Berlin?

00:06:08: What is particularly Berlin about this?

00:06:12: Then sort of like broad or more thematic question i was thinking about when something like psychedelics, an alternative medicine.

00:06:23: Something that's always been seen as kind of subculture or counter-culture what happens when that becomes the culture?

00:06:31: Or part of the culture?

00:06:32: yeah

00:06:33: Do you feel like your satisfied with the answers you got?

00:06:36: Yeah I think it's... There is not one answer to any those questions but It was interesting going through The first question Who Is It For?

00:06:48: The main thing I could say taking away was this is the wildest combination of people at an event that i have ever experienced.

00:06:55: Because you go in and there's as mentioned, they're bio hackers or what would call like the midter startup final boss?

00:07:03: And then There's also proper hippies white people with dreads doing drumming circles As people who are very clearly just left for the psychedelics on psychedelic wandering around trying to take it very seriously.

00:07:19: I always wondered where those people who do juggling at the street lights, were they kind of congregate?

00:07:25: There was... Do you know what?

00:07:27: there was?

00:07:27: a juggling thing?

00:07:29: As part of advertising is said break mental health world record.

00:07:35: and then i came across this little sign among sort of psychedelic stuff meaning come at this time and break a world record for juggling!

00:07:42: Right right And there's a juggling man too.

00:07:44: so clearly that's All

00:07:46: right.

00:07:47: Well, let's break down some of those things.

00:07:48: I mean you mentioned sort of the Berlin angle of it all.

00:07:52: What is there like general update on the science and the politics?

00:07:55: Is it allowed now to use psychedelics medicinally in berlin?

00:08:00: what's that kind of basic?

00:08:03: So currently It's not allowed generally speaking.

00:08:07: but what has changed in the past?

00:08:09: literally within the past year permitted in Germany.

00:08:15: And that's the first of its kind, so by a compassionate use trial we mean more than just randomised control trials or something like research setting.

00:08:27: it means a compassionate used trial.

00:08:29: basically means people who have treatment resistant depression.

00:08:35: they've exhausted all their other options.

00:08:38: There's now sort of one clinic that has been allowed to use psilocybin as a treatment for depression,

00:08:44: so- The Ovid Clinic right?

00:08:45: Exactly

00:08:46: In Friedrichstein.

00:08:47: Yeah

00:08:47: in Friedrichsein exactly.

00:08:48: I mean

00:08:48: i think it's kind of amazing.

00:08:49: yeah i think It's uh One of these things where Berlin really does feel like there's something interesting happening here and at the forefront.

00:08:54: And um...I remember when in two thousand eighteen Michael Pollan book How To Change Your Mind came out and few years later than he wrote this is your mind on plants brought a lot of the kind of micro-dosey, not just hippies at a fish concert tripping balls or whatever.

00:09:14: This kind of psychonotic people interested in the brain and of course that's people interested In therapy and people are interested in productivity And people should like peak performance Like Tim Ferriss would be talking about it.

00:09:26: What was your sense there At The conference About Berlin status?

00:09:30: Did you feel This was it had to be here or do you feel like this is something that could be?

00:09:35: You said, like San Francisco are kind of the anywhere in the world.

00:09:38: Or what was Berlin about It?

00:09:40: I think like you said i think there's specific The practicalities Of a fact That this clinic Is Here and Friedrich Sein Does Make A real Difference And Kind of Gives it That Scientific Grounding Because Your Then able I mean They Show Me Their Research Studies That they use In advance And so on That Side of Things as well.

00:09:58: I also Think This is something that was brought up in a couple of talks.

00:10:02: I think Berlin has an interesting history, in general, of counterculture and someone at one of the talks were saying this is one of The Last Centres Of Capitalistic Resistance In The World which might be slight hyperbole my opinion but it has That Interesting Mixture Of The Real Scientific Rigour.

00:10:21: But Then Also The History Of Counterculture And Psychedelics More Generally Like In West Germany In The Sixties As Well

00:10:29: Yeah, and you also mentioned the Sandos.

00:10:32: I don't know how to say it, Sandoz?

00:10:35: You mention The Sando's Lab where a lot of LSD was produced and not discovered but had this kind of Nazi connection.

00:10:45: is that right?

00:10:45: So

00:10:45: what's the history there?

00:10:46: yeah?

00:10:47: Essentially this going off of Norman Ola talk answer with his book as well.

00:10:52: But essentially Sandus was the lab were LSD first accidentally discovered And it was, so that was the lab where Albert Hoffman sort of first actually discovered Sendos.

00:11:03: Oh

00:11:03: no way!

00:11:04: I didn't put those two together with this famous bicycle ride?

00:11:07: With his famous bicycle right exactly yeah.

00:11:10: and So what is the history you mentioned in your article about the Nazi connection to Norman Oler?

00:11:14: Yes yes The Nazi connections interesting as we mention Hoffmann probably have heard of him if you know a little bit about psychedelic history.

00:11:23: He is the guy who accidentally discovered LSD, tried some of it and then went on this bicycle ride where he took like a heroic dose by accident but LSD was just cycling around going.

00:11:32: what the hell's going on there?

00:11:34: But yeah...he worked at a lab called Sandos And basically what Norman Ola who's his historian discovered by digging into archives in Sandos Is that The Guy Who essentially was in charge of Sanders, I believe.

00:11:49: Was in regular communication with this German man called Richard Kuhn and In the nineteen forties richard kuhn starts working with the Nazis And the Nazis are at his time trying to develop methods of ways of chemically controlling people try To create their own mind control drug essentially and testing it on people in concentration camps.

00:12:13: He discovered some written communication between these two between the Sandos lab and Richard Kuhn.

00:12:19: So it's not one hundred percent confirmed, but what you can read between the lines of what they're suggesting is that Sandos did send over some... I don't think it was lysergic acid?

00:12:29: It was the thing that used to make lyseric acid to Richard Kughn because they always shared their research together.

00:12:36: so potentially what Ola argues this how LSE got into the hands of the Nazis And then begin testing on people

00:12:46: because of its connection to the Nazis, becomes part of the argument against legalization and psychedelic drugs.

00:12:55: Not only this kind of anti-counterculture long haired hooligans with their flower power or whatever but then it also had those Nazi past that was used to justify their prohibition.

00:13:06: Yeah cause to begin before this in Santos.

00:13:09: It would still be treated as a very interesting medicine and one of the things it talks about is a potential cure for dementia which Ola gets into in his book as well, A Potential Cure For Depression.

00:13:20: Which we're just getting back to now.

00:13:21: And essentially what changes then when there's United States hears that the Nazis are using this.

00:13:29: Then they get hold of LSD.

00:13:32: They begin MKUltra.

00:13:34: It becomes kind of a two-pronged first full Nazi associations of it as a mind-control drug.

00:13:40: Then there's the American Association, so they think we're going to use this is a mind control drug.

00:13:45: and They also get worried at these times since the Cold War that thinking well We don't want the USSR getting hold on this.

00:13:51: So if you say If were gonna have it?

00:13:52: Were just gonna Have for ourselves.

00:13:54: This can be used in research purposes or make a controlled substance.

00:13:58: essentially

00:13:59: It's interesting.

00:14:00: then now fast forward to Now among certain circles.

00:14:05: Yeah, piece of optimization.

00:14:07: Yes a tool in the toolkit of self-actualization or high performance um Or better focus I mean okay.

00:14:16: so we've talked a little bit about Berlin but like You know one thing i really like.

00:14:20: In The Articles you say it's hard to tell if its festival or conference yeah Why does that matter?

00:14:24: Like why is the difference important?

00:14:27: ?I think It Is Important for Berlin.

00:14:29: mm-hmm ,you Know

00:14:30: yeah.

00:14:31: and I Think the organizers Of the expo would argue the same thing, they say it doesn't matter.

00:14:36: It's all part of this same culture and yeah... The nightlife part is part of the conversation which does make sense in a sense because when you're thinking about okay we are having these conversations about psychedelics We're coming together to talk about psychedelic.

00:14:55: logically You could say ok were coming together experience psychedelics together To move our bodies together.

00:15:00: I definitely think in theory, i completely understand that.

00:15:06: In practice what it means is there's just different people for different purposes and particularly as the evening goes on you then get people who are just there... There was a big Psytrance event so we got that crossover where they were like oh yeah!

00:15:20: You know?

00:15:20: I'm not going to any of their talks here.. Just go into party.

00:15:28: not so much for crossover in that respect.

00:15:30: But I don't think every single person who comes to this festival has to be pondering the impacts of psychedelics, but it does create a weird setting where particularly by evening there was still talks going on people trying to take it seriously and then people were definitely beginning to party drinking out into sunshine all day doing whatever they would do.

00:15:49: Yeah

00:15:50: like...I had an impression reading article that Elon Musk famously turned away at Berghain.

00:15:56: He would not have been turned away here, right?

00:15:58: These are there.

00:15:59: Are some of his people in a big way?

00:16:02: and he's I guess a famous mushrooms taker?

00:16:04: Yeah And and psycho knot himself or something?

00:16:07: yeah You also like what.

00:16:10: tell me more about the kind of people that were they're.

00:16:12: you talk about someone named Dominic who comes from I think Hanover yeah, and You said he has this kind of business idea.

00:16:19: okay great But you said he's exactly the demographic.

00:16:22: You keep meeting, so what do mean?

00:16:23: I think like you mentioned, Elon Musk would definitely have felt at home there what I called them before, the kind of like start-up final boss characters.

00:16:32: Dominic definitely felt one in him that he was very sweet and we actually ended up spending a lot time together but... He's just almost like an archetype you can imagine about this person who is there from not even Hanover, small town outside Hanover with straight edge worked at Porsche Very corporate.

00:16:51: But then he went And did I believe it was Ayahuasca.

00:16:56: World was changed and he discovered that capitalism is bad actually now.

00:17:01: By discovering capitalism was bad, you said to me who wanted to fight by starting a business which I didn't quite get the logic.

00:17:07: but if you want it to create his own thing and there's lots of young men in particular who had started their own business who perhaps before and if they hadn't taken psychedelics would be leaving leading very archetypal conservative with the small sea lives in Germany.

00:17:28: Kind of this joke sometimes women make that it's like men have to do psychedelics, understand they should have empathy.

00:17:35: and there was some people who felt maybe were there.

00:17:39: Actually Dominic's business at least is not supplements.

00:17:42: so a lot of supplement being sold.

00:17:44: Yeah something need to improve physically.

00:17:49: an external an external input is the thing that will improve us.

00:17:54: Yeah, that was something I found very interesting and i think The Expo kind of created this environment because it wasn't just for psychedelics It's human flourishing as they called it And They had a whole stage That Was Called The Longevity Stage They Invited All These Biohackers In Which Is Not Psychedelics But in Their Minds It Feels Like Psychedelic Are Part Of This Self-optimization.

00:18:19: Yeah, or like at state of the art right exactly on the forefront of something.

00:18:22: yeah You know just because dr.

00:18:25: Atia was in the Epstein files whatever that movement seems alive and well And in Berlin so but it's a good segue.

00:18:32: Like tell us more about The Founder and some of the speakers and you quote Kevin Kappa senior advisor?

00:18:40: Yeah, you said It was like a flourishing conference But what was the goal of it and how is positioned?

00:18:46: and was this purely a money-making operation?

00:18:49: Is it supposed to be scalable, is like the Lollapalooza of psychedelics or something.

00:18:57: What did you learn from?

00:18:58: kind of how they presented in what thereafter?

00:19:00: Yeah yeah essentially.

00:19:02: yet The founder is a guy called Jacob Malkmus I'm not sure.

00:19:07: And he's y'know He's young guy And he seems like the type of guy who's just always been starting his own little mini-businesses.

00:19:17: If you look back through history, He starts off with health foods and then moves into vitamins.

00:19:25: that business is still going.

00:19:27: At the same time also gets involved running a festival which they showcase at this expo as well in The Evenings Also get involved with CBD company.

00:19:41: It feels like this is something in the positive sense.

00:19:43: he's always been interested.

00:19:45: Yeah, how much creatine was there?

00:19:47: Yeah

00:19:48: What was that protein?

00:19:49: wasn't that much protein.

00:19:50: There was a lot of matcha and yeah.

00:19:52: And I love cacao like gentrified cacao.

00:19:55: it's okay how i confess describe it With all these claims anyway but yeah, I think I guess for them it makes sense.

00:20:06: If this is something he's interested in, if you've got his background and nightlife.

00:20:11: And it was kind of world and he has the funds to do I could see why them logical next step would be let create an expo that talk about us.

00:20:19: Yeah

00:20:21: we don't have a conspiracy behind.

00:20:22: like people think they can sell tickets for this thing because its interesting but how did they manage position it?

00:20:33: such a wide group of people.

00:20:34: I think the sort of angle that they had, which i think does make sense to me personally is... They said that conversations around psychedelic research and mental health and culture around those fields were already happening.

00:20:47: you know we can think like The Scientific, The Corporate, The Cultural but they were never happening in the same room.

00:20:53: Like the scientists were never speaking practitioners, the art and culture side never speak into each other.

00:21:01: So they were like let's bring them all together to have these conversations in the same place.

00:21:07: essentially

00:21:07: Did you feel that happened?

00:21:08: I

00:21:09: think there is still a divide.

00:21:13: when i spoke with the person from the Ovid clinic which was the clinic of Friedrich Hine the grifters, to be frank.

00:21:30: He was selling this kind of stuff.

00:21:31: you know he says...he said to me there's a lot people who are seeing new kind of gold rush and I think for people like him-who has been his life work in research it is..you can't really have conversation with those because your just speaking about two different things You know?

00:21:46: He isn't talking about optimising our lives or business.

00:21:49: He is actually trying make an impact on people that were quite ill Um, and he's very scientific backed.

00:21:57: And I think a lot of the more spiritual side of things you know who is a very practical German man like it was just never going to work for him

00:22:05: right?

00:22:06: Do You Think It Made Money?

00:22:07: do you think it Was A Success?

00:22:09: It Was.

00:22:11: It Was Certainly Very Busy And i'd Have To Look Up The Prices Of The Tickets.

00:22:14: The Ticket Were Pretty Pricey Yeah And The Entire Time I Was There It Was Quite Busy.

00:22:21: But there Was An Extra If You Got Your VIP Ticket which I got access to for free with my press pass.

00:22:26: You've got access the separate wellness section, Which was essentially a small strip of grass next to river With a caravan that was a sauna Some very sort-of shoddy ice baths And there were just a bunch of naked German men doing press ups and thought if i'd had pay extra.

00:22:45: Yeah, I felt like there was a lot of you know the classic that you can buy for an extra fifty euros.

00:22:53: You can get this and to go to the club nights.

00:22:56: You had to also play extra.

00:22:57: so just keeps adding

00:22:59: And they're yeah There were some legitimate speakers their right?

00:23:01: I mean said William Leonard Pickard was mentioned.

00:23:04: Right So who's he?

00:23:05: and what did you learn from his talk?

00:23:07: or

00:23:08: i mean He was super.

00:23:10: He's a character and he is definitely i'm mentioning in the article he has kind of a psychedelic celebrity the man who's believed to have synthesized at one point, I believe it was ninety percent of the world's LSD.

00:23:24: I mentioned in the article he speaks with...it was the calmness and slowness of someone who accidentally took eighty million doses of acid which she did on time.

00:23:33: Oh my god

00:23:33: really?

00:23:34: Yeah basically he was trying to...he was synthesizing the acid in a lab and something spilt and cracked and poured all over him And he thinks it was about eighty million doses of acid.

00:23:48: He says, he's lying on the floor because when you're doing this... You always work alone cause'.

00:23:54: he said that its too dangerous and don't want to get other people in trouble.

00:23:56: so he is alone in the middle of nowhere in desert ummm..and runs into a shower trying to wash off.

00:24:03: In that moment hes hearing angel choirs singing his vision completely going.

00:24:10: This is first one minute And so he said, it just went out and he sat in the desert.

00:24:17: Yeah saw whatever the hell he saw.

00:24:20: Oh my God!

00:24:20: Then once that was over He went back in and cleaned up and got to work.

00:24:28: Were there any other speakers?

00:24:29: That standout maybe could make into an article.

00:24:33: There's also quite interesting talk from someone called Gabriel who's from the Psychedelic Society of Berlin, which is essentially like a society.

00:24:44: A club trying to bring the community back into the world of psychedelics.

00:24:49: you can imagine it's a social Club but they meet up and go to the sauna in do mushrooms together.

00:24:54: And he was quite interesting because He's actually an anthropologist and his research Is specifically to do with ayahuasca?

00:25:02: How has Ayahuasco actually practiced In indigenous communities on Amazon And he essentially went on these trips to try and find the most remote tribes that you can, but haven't really had so much Western influence.

00:25:19: Okay?

00:25:19: How do they practice

00:25:20: ayahuasca?"

00:25:21: He said.

00:25:22: what we found interesting is that he went into this village... I can't remember the tribe's name!

00:25:27: But it was very, very remote.

00:25:29: And interestingly how they did?

00:25:30: Ayahuasco- It wasn't in a ceremonial way that, you know the westerners get sold and some other tribes do.

00:25:36: He said it was very casual.

00:25:38: It was like having a beer.

00:25:39: he said he'd done ayahuasca with these people And then he just sat With Some of The Elders.

00:25:44: but Then the families were in there.

00:25:46: There Was Kids Running About They Were Just In A Kitchen Like Chatting And He Found That Super Interesting For These People.

00:25:52: This Is A Social Thing Yeah.

00:25:56: And He Wondered Whether Some Of The More Ceremonial Side We See Was Potentially To Do tribes that have been a bit more Christianized.

00:26:07: And adding, okay this is religious thing rather than like social things and connecting with nature?

00:26:14: That was his theory.

00:26:15: I don't know how true it.

00:26:21: In the western world now we've sort of got so into this idea self-optimization and then psychedelics are being used as part.

00:26:29: That's all super individualistic right?

00:26:31: It is like I'm going to live forever, improve my life X Y Zed.

00:26:36: but actually if you go back what psychedelic should be or he argues that they're traditionally use for Connecting with other people.

00:26:44: It's a community building tool is connecting with other People.

00:26:48: it's also connecting with nature, right?

00:26:50: If you do psychedelics You feel more in touch With the Nature around you.

00:26:53: so his argument was let's try and bring it back to that Let's Bring it Back To A Place of Community Rather Than Endless Self-Optimization.

00:27:02: yeah Yeah I mean it's interesting like In this scene Part Of The Appeal And Maybe Its With Any Kind.

00:27:11: Yeah, I don't know drug or state of the art really forefront technology Or practice but like in both those spaces.

00:27:19: Like some of the appeal seems like it's being part Of a secret.

00:27:22: yes for being ahead of that are being ahead The curve.

00:27:25: But then you have yeah people talking about It?

00:27:28: Yes and sort of promoting it or marketing it or wanting to share.

00:27:32: i figured this out And everyone else would do This and it could blow up A spot.

00:27:36: or does it matter like is anything at risk?

00:27:38: did You Have a feeling of That Sort of tension There?

00:27:41: I think so.

00:27:42: I definitely agree with you, it feels like there was a sense that from the people who are visiting what they liked about this space where everyone understood... You didn't have to explain yourself!

00:27:55: There was an idea of this shared secret.

00:27:59: The sense that people aren't going make fun for saying I did psychedelics and improved my life in XYLZ way And i wondered something like is essentially, yeah it makes more mainstream.

00:28:15: I don't think that event itself, psychedelics are becoming more mainstream and one of the people i spoke to was oh you know there's normal people here isn't just hippy dippy weirdos which is definitely true.

00:28:30: but then what is lost by giving that too everyone?

00:28:35: And for some people who i spoke with felt like this psychedelics are something spiritual, or something counter-cultural.

00:28:44: And so necessarily actually they shouldn't be so mainstream because then in that process it's going to be lost doesn't make sense?

00:28:52: Yeah

00:28:54: I mean do you have a sense of like the line between cultural appropriation or curiosity and health?

00:29:00: yeah i think It was interesting...it was Something That I didn't really Have The Space To Write About In The Article but the use of the tribes from The Amazon in this expo.

00:29:11: So I mentioned obviously, there are different groups people that but they were also some sort of traditional practitioners.

00:29:16: so we're People From The Amazon who where their in ceremonial dress and throughout the weekend They would have these things called Rape ceremonies which is essentially to do with like tobacco And they blow tobacco up your nose, massively oversimplifying it.

00:29:29: There was cacao ceremonies.

00:29:33: It was something that people who were visiting there, we're loving but I found it interesting in this setting.

00:29:38: That almost felt like they are being used as set decoration.

00:29:43: As at all.

00:29:44: look This is... We've got some legitimacy here because you have these traditional practitioners doing the stuff and everyone's filming them And things like that and i just wondered from their perspective what They would made of this whole event.

00:29:59: Yeah Absolutely.

00:30:02: I used to subscribe to Double Blind Magazine, it's a magazine from the States that is quite nice print magazine.

00:30:09: they also offer courses like how-to trip or micro dose and often talk about other substances but in end its uncomfortable feel.

00:30:19: you're part of commercialization or exposure this private thing.

00:30:23: are people?

00:30:23: things double blind for sure have slightly liberal point.

00:30:28: Some of the articles are explicitly about that.

00:30:30: We're white people exploring intersectionality and psychedelics, but we recognize a need to respect ancient traditions in threatened communities.

00:30:38: But also check it out.

00:30:39: There's this very rare frog That you can lick if go into one place like I won't tell where It is Like its called This.

00:30:45: Did You Feel Any Kind Of Responsibility As A Writer In The Space?

00:30:48: How did you Want To Balance All These Things Also?

00:30:53: Yeah i think Its A Difficult One Because I Didn'T want wanting to go in this, try and completely take the piss.

00:31:01: That's not what I believe!

00:31:03: And...I think there is a balance between these products…these medicines have had real impact for people.

00:31:13: so i can understand if you've gone to South America and experienced something..and you think wow this has completely changed my life.

00:31:21: You want other people experience that too.

00:31:26: even some of the local practitioners, they might be thinking this is we want to share our knowledge with people.

00:31:31: But it does in some ways feel a little bit extractive-the knowledge that kind of are just taking things out and I don't know what were giving these communities other than money... Yeah yeah i'm not sure.

00:31:44: What's current status?

00:31:47: these LSD copycats or analogs, what are they?

00:31:52: You mentioned once and like how do they work.

00:31:56: Are the same as LSD ,are they legal?.

00:31:59: So there was lots of stands throughout

00:32:02: the

00:32:02: expo hall which I've sort of wandered over.

00:32:05: so i thought is it selling right ?

00:32:06: They think that's something.

00:32:07: yeah they are.

00:32:08: um .So a stand up selling Amanita mushrooms which uh believe like a type of psilocybin mushroom okay which is still technically legal.

00:32:17: And then lots of the other stands were essentially selling synthetic versions of LSD, psilocybin and two CB.

00:32:26: But they're clear.

00:32:28: it's not the same drug obviously but... Essentially particularly with LSD I could get their name up is something that basically have to keep changing because they keep decriminalising.

00:32:41: so if you keep slightly tweaking

00:32:44: Right, so they make an analog like a molecule.

00:32:46: Yeah

00:32:46: other molecules They change one bit from the molecule

00:32:49: and then that you or Germany or something Discoveres it and says this is illegal It goes through all the regulatory processes And then whoever's producing it just changes again and calls it something else.

00:33:00: exactly

00:33:01: but Is the effect of it?

00:33:02: The same?

00:33:02: I mean how its okay That they were selling it in people where than i guess Tripping on these copycats.

00:33:09: Yeah, I think so i believe they were selling was one P LSD and then the mushroom analog is called for prometosin.

00:33:20: okay um And yeah They are able to sell them because essentially they say These are research chemicals that have been used for research.

00:33:29: uh-huh I got a leaflet from the LSD stand, let me see if i can find it because they phrased in quite a funny way.

00:33:53: Yes so they call this specific brand called Fair LSD and says well fair lsd is not made for human consumption.

00:34:01: It's an experimental substance and your choice how you experiment with it.

00:34:06: but If it in someway accidentally finds its way into our body You should be prepared for LSD like effects.

00:34:13: Yeah, what would you recommend listeners?

00:34:14: They want to get into it.

00:34:15: And

00:34:15: yeah

00:34:16: What should they look too do or looking out-to-do and that's a good place to get started.

00:34:21: Yeah I think yeah.

00:34:24: the issue with this synthetic versions of The psychedelics like their fake LSD is at when You change one molecule It's not making that much difference but it can't.

00:34:34: it makes us just more unstable.

00:34:36: so often people report Is either it doesn't kick in for really long time or it doesn't kick in at all, and is just extremely stronger or weaker.

00:34:46: It's a lot more variable.

00:34:48: so if you could find yourself an actual LSD and mushrooms that would be safer than going with these synthetic compounds.

00:34:56: The advantage of the synthetic ones are you can buy them online You're not having to know someone on underground routes.

00:35:04: but generally speaking its better to go with the substance.

00:35:11: And, you know a big thing they have said.

00:35:13: everyone in the psychedelic world knows about this I'm sure.

00:35:16: but like set and setting.

00:35:19: The intentions that you go into taking it psychedelic making sure your inner environment feels comfortable for you.

00:35:28: so its interesting people doing at Tripp Expo because it's such an... In terms of certain settings.. In some ways is perfect.

00:35:34: cause it's so bizarre if were on high dose of psychedelics jarring that experience of going from one room to another and sitting in a sort of professional talk, one minute.

00:35:44: And then being in a drumming circle the next

00:35:47: also probably the worst thing you could do.

00:35:49: while really tripping is like run into other people.

00:35:51: tripping?

00:35:52: Yeah I mean where Do You See This All Going Like?

00:35:54: Will Psychedelics Be Used More?

00:35:58: yeah i think it's interesting.

00:36:03: the person at The Ovid Clinic and actually reading sort of summary of their studies, they believe that, yeah, psilocybin should be legalized.

00:36:11: At least for medical use within the next five years?

00:36:13: So I think it's definitely in a direction of travel we're going into.

00:36:16: And lots people who i spoke to at the festival felt like They were at the beginning of another sort of psychedelic renaissance Like we had in the sixties.

00:36:25: but In this time its not counter culture It is becoming culture.

00:36:29: so Yeah, more acceptable in a lot of ways.

00:36:36: And I think it's interesting... ...in the sort-of nightlife world which i know about.

00:36:42: you know In Berlin at the minute The big thing is like three MMC four MMC.

00:36:45: Is these kind of hard chemicals and your dancing for ages?

00:36:51: And I wonder whether there's going to be like A swing back into thinking some people who maybe done it pushed It a bit too hard on those chemical side things.

00:37:02: Actually, they're moving into psychedelics because it's I think kind of objectively better for you than doing some of the other drugs.

00:37:12: Yeah So It could become part that from my experience in nightlife is not something people are using a night life lots.

00:37:20: but i do wonder whether if becomes legalized will swing more That way.

00:37:24: yeah like you said with Michael Palin But interesting these things are becoming more normalized.

00:37:34: And I think, but if you've got no experience in psychedelics at all just being like oh i'm going to start micro dosing Like You Are Still Experiencing A Psychedelic State.

00:37:45: It's Not Taking a Vitamin In The Same Way Or Drinking Coffee Exactly.

00:37:52: There Is Something Also Interesting and Maybe Analogous To Berlin In That You Mentioned In The Article was always considered very counter-culturally, grateful dead.

00:38:04: You know, psychedelic man like that kind of stuff.

00:38:07: and now Tim Ferriss and Dr.

00:38:10: Atia these more the bro... The manosphere.

00:38:14: this change is real.

00:38:16: I wonder if it can be reclaimed or evened out?

00:38:21: Or If That Matters

00:38:22: Yeah!

00:38:25: So what i took away at end of weekend There was a lot of those people that I mentioned, and... ...I wrote about them because they're entertaining.

00:38:36: And also it's symbolic as you said the new direction its going in.

00:38:42: but there wasn't one conversation happening at the expo actually.. ..there were lots different kinds of conversations going on.

00:38:49: i think theres definitely group who are seeing which way the wind is blowing trying to push back against.

00:38:56: There's nothing worse than having something that you love and enjoy being co-opted by Elon Musk.

00:39:05: With anything seen as forbidden, there is something gained or lost in making it more mainstream.

00:39:15: I want to say thanks again to Lily Johnson for our good chat.

00:39:29: Like i said, I'll link her full article in the show notes or you can find it at heistberlinne.com.

00:39:33: We will be back with another episode In two weeks.

00:39:36: until then always send us pictures and ideas.

00:39:39: Our email is helloatheisberlinn.com.

00:39:43: Bye.