The U-Bahn assassination that never happened

00:00:00: So the attack happened in November?

00:00:01: The

00:00:01: attacks happen in November.

00:00:02: Around late December, I think beginning of January... ...I get a message from my friend saying this attack never happened and i can't go into very specific but like- But I'm not the only one who got this message And clearly people in the police have known that this attack did not happen since the day after.

00:00:28: so This is also thing if you want to fake anything of an attack or anything at all.

00:00:33: Don't do it in the U-Bahn, just like you know.

00:00:36: if you want to be attacked and you wanna be claimed that something happened to you In this street...in a park not in the u-ban.

00:00:59: Welcome to The Heist Podcast.

00:01:00: I'm Ben Schumann Stoller.

00:01:02: This episode is part of the three episode drop we're doing to kick off whole podcast.

00:01:07: We're doing three episodes at once.

00:01:09: So this episode features Yossi Bartah, but we are also publishing conversations with Habba Jamal about Palestinian life in Berlin and with Ben Miller about the AFD and weaponizing their queer politics.

00:01:19: so please check out those episodes on The Feed!

00:01:22: But yeah... This episode is with Yossy Bartah And it's a fake attempted murder that happened earlier this year.

00:01:30: You'll hear Yossi in conversation with Peter Matthews, a founding editor of Heist.

00:01:34: And for me personally.

00:01:36: I especially found it interesting cultural institutions in Neukölln, here in Berlin and how they've become like an interface for city politicians to contact.

00:01:49: And engage with these Arab speaking communities.

00:01:52: but the conversation also goes into some of the problems in journalism In Germany today and maybe most importantly How German media reacts when one of their media darlings is actually in the wrong?

00:02:05: You can read Yossi's feature about this faked murder at heisberlin.com where you can also sign up to Heist, but for now here's Peter Matthews and Yossi Bartal.

00:02:18: One of the things we've wanted to do at Heist is bring stories that have been reported elsewhere to our audience And one of the ones which caught our attention was an article in TATS by Yossy Bartal I think it was called The Storyteller Which focused on a director of a school in Neukern.

00:02:36: Anyway!

00:02:36: Yossie Bartal Is Here.

00:02:38: Could You Introduce Yourself?

00:02:40: Tell Us Who Are You?

00:02:42: My name is Jose Bortal.

00:02:45: I live in Neukölln, actually since twenty years.

00:02:47: I am originally from Jerusalem and... ...I have become a journalist in recent years mainly because.. ..I was interested in bringing investigations and opinions to German journalism that i thought were not very dare-not-very visible.

00:03:05: A lot of investigations ,a lot things pop up in German news tend to be, in my eyes quite fascinatingly wrong.

00:03:15: And this kind of figures that are celebrated a lot of times where anyone who actually knows something comes from the region.

00:03:22: does people come from have a bit of an understanding of geopolitics?

00:03:27: Now there's something little bit off but somehow those figures might be celebrated in German media very much as courageous is quite extraordinary people and That is actually the story that we have in front us.

00:03:39: Yeah, well when I read it.

00:03:41: I couldn't believe it like you read and then it gets stranger and stranger more and more alarming.

00:03:48: so yeah And can you just tell us a little how did you become a journalist?

00:03:51: Well i was quite active in different left wing groups also working on Palestine Israel anti-Semitism racism very much intrigued by the way The German media depicts an work on those issues.

00:04:08: And one of the problems that I see a lot in investigative journalism, and not only Germany.

00:04:13: A lot of time big mainstream media is that investigative journalism tends to be working together with the state getting things from The Secret Services, working together powerful figures... ...and asking or questioning them.

00:04:28: Yeah!

00:04:29: That kind aggressive consensus in German media landscape.

00:04:32: it's definitely something we're very aware kind of experience here.

00:04:37: But let's go into this case because I really think everyone should find out about it and that was such an extraordinary circumstance, so... It involves the director at a German-Arabic school in Neukönne named Ibn Khaldun School i think And a guy called Udhaifa al Mashhadani.

00:04:57: At end last year he reported on assassination attempt.

00:05:02: Can you just tell me at that time, like what was the news?

00:05:04: What was the reported thing.

00:05:06: What happened?

00:05:07: who is the presumed attacker and how did Berlin politicians and The Berlin establishment react to this assassination attempt?

00:05:16: mm-hmm.

00:05:17: so what we have in November two thousand twenty five is Starting with a Facebook post by hudeff El mashadani claiming to be attacked in the U-Bahn, in Oikung and that he was thrown infront of a running train.

00:05:36: Someone tried

00:05:36: to push him infront?

00:05:37: Exactly!

00:05:37: Trying to push them infrontof a train.

00:05:40: A clear attempted murder by any accounts but only his account But clearly... By this account it's very clearly an attempt at murder.

00:05:49: The news spread out of course very fast.

00:05:51: Not everyone knew who is that person although No, no.

00:05:55: And no one knew who was the attacker.

00:05:57: and only thing that he would say in like Hudefa and Mashadani claims is that the attacker wearing a Palestinian scarf or a red one?

00:06:07: That this attack came as part of political intimidation against him for his work against anti-Semitism because

00:06:16: it had been known to support, work on combating anti-Semitism and so on.

00:06:24: Right?

00:06:24: He would have been famous as...

00:06:26: So this is the interesting thing.

00:06:27: not a lot of people knew who was that person.

00:06:29: actually it was a bit known in Berlin local politics.

00:06:33: his name already stood up In recent two years Actually only in twenty four and twenty five.

00:06:39: That person Helmut Shadani Is a person that was organized in events together with The Israeli Embassy.

00:06:45: when we say combatting anti-semitism We need to understand combatting the German understanding the German mainstream, understand afterwards like making pro-Israeli activities.

00:06:53: So he did organize meetings with Israeli youth in Neukölln and with the Israeli embassy.

00:06:59: He did speak in pro-israel demonstrations an Arab, like an Iraqi.

00:07:06: Masjidani comes from Iraq and his story was that he was always active against extremism also in this country.

00:07:12: And he came here as a refugee and fleeing actually Islamism.

00:07:17: unlike Islamic attacks against him He came to continue his fight for democracy and liberalism.

00:07:23: So

00:07:23: the idea is it had been targeted for this work?

00:07:26: Exactly!

00:07:27: There were actually so its not first time attack.

00:07:32: There was as much as we know, one clear case where graffiti was put on the school with red triangles which is used by pro-Palestinians like Palestinians has kind of a form for threat and as a Hamas symbol.

00:07:48: And there were also Arabic language gravity threatened in him personally calling him a traitor.

00:07:55: We know if one event that was in the media.

00:07:57: there are other complaints to police.

00:08:01: Till today don't are not sure if all of them are correct.

00:08:03: One case is clear that it's not correct, so we're very unclear about the details.

00:08:08: All right So let say this attack happens and then how does everybody react?

00:08:13: What's the response?

00:08:13: Of course the attacks happen as any other cases.

00:08:16: This something that happened quite a lot in Berlin years, whenever there is an attack or a threat.

00:08:24: Or let's say a very problematic image that comes up the media reaction when it's against people who are considered to be pro-Israeli... The media reaction is quite fast and political reactions very fast.

00:08:37: so we see all of the media reports about really from like Neues Deutschland & Tatz till the right wings It not just in Berlin its will be national news.

00:08:46: Politicians, of course show solidarity with the person.

00:08:49: There is other organizations will show solidarity or if the person so there Is always like this very big coming together and we had those cases before when they were posters against journalists.

00:08:59: for example poor Israeli journalist When there was attacks against it wasn't attack against one Jewish student.

00:09:06: some Of these cases.

00:09:07: We know who are behind them something as to we don't know what would be on them but usually whenever someone is attacked?

00:09:12: there is a big wave of solidarity and clear specifically in talking about, like we need to deal with the rising anti-Semitism and a rising threat coming from authoritarian left or from Islamist scene of pro-Palestinian groups.

00:09:26: It could be different names but it will be about mobilizing support for people as well as more repressive politics against pro-palestinians.

00:09:37: This reaction clearly came and was dominating news.

00:09:41: The interesting thing is that police were actually quite quiet about this issue, the days that followed.

00:09:48: Interesting so I mean i think Kai Wigner-the mayor gives him a or like condemn the attack or cowardly attack as well.

00:09:54: and but the police you're saying immediately seemed not to be as

00:09:59: um... Not immediately!

00:10:00: But in the come.. In the following days it seems Like The Police And parts of the media itself Seems To Be Less interested in the case.

00:10:09: It is an attempted murder.

00:10:10: so it's quite interesting.

00:10:12: supposedly, it wasn't a attempt to murder... So it IS quite interesting to see who was after few days quietly not commenting anymore on this issue.

00:10:20: I'm interested.

00:10:20: also some of the posts that he was making like

00:10:24: maybe i wanna go back And like speak a little bit about what's going on here in Neukölln with this case.

00:10:30: So we have, of course This case often Arabs speaking an Iraqi former refugee or refugee becoming a pro-Israeli activist and this is Of course something that I think Is first of all Something that people react to as very much interested bewildered.

00:10:46: It's good To go back A bit and understand where?

00:10:49: What is this neighborhood and what are We talking About?

00:10:51: i mean i guess most of the listeners know neuköllnn As a very Arab neighborhood, it was... Necron became more or less the center of Arab community in Berlin and West Berlin already in the eighties.

00:11:05: The school that we are talking about, Ibn Khaldun School is actually one of the first Arab associations in west Berlin.

00:11:11: It was founded in nineteen seventy four by Arab migrants students a lot from different countries like Iraq Syria Sudan Palestine Lebanon.

00:11:22: a beautiful association that was created in order to teach Arab kids who were at the time, we're talking about the seventies.

00:11:30: There are just a few here to teach them their mother tongue and also give them some cultural lessons like not lessons but giving them lessons on Arab culture actually be home for very small Arab community existed since the seventies with sometimes dozens, sometimes hundreds of students and became part of Nürburgring also in the nineties.

00:12:00: And two thousands moved there.

00:12:03: so We have this kind of Arab organizing, organic Arab organization that is going on in Nicaragua and a growing Arab community.

00:12:10: Right?

00:12:10: Like in the eighties many people from Lebanon come here through after the Civil War Palestinians and People From The South A lot Of Shia Lebanese And of course we Have more and More Waves More Students Coming.

00:12:23: As You Know The Big Wave Of Refugees In Then Two Thousand Fifteen Mashadani was part of by the way.

00:12:29: Mashadini came here as well, As much we know in two thousand and sixteen at the beginning of twenty sixteen is part Of that big wave of refugees.

00:12:38: So this school And a lot of other associations I think This Is like The interesting thing That We can see in Aikon's That We have a Lot of those kind of cultural Associations.

00:12:48: We Have the Iraqi Community Association For While We Have Disassociation Kultur Feayne These Kind of Networks of Organization Usually Led By Men Who Gather some support in their own communities and also show supporting are usually used by the political establishment in Neukön as kind of ways to go into those communities.

00:13:08: We're talking about a way of governmentality In The Neighborhood, which is very interesting A Very patriarchal Way Of Controlling The Migrant Community.

00:13:16: we know that there's crime.

00:13:18: There Is A Lot Of Problems In The Neighbourhood.

00:13:19: There Are Also Many Adolescents.

00:13:21: And The Question Of Like Arab Delinquency Or Migrant Delinquencies Not New In Germany, it's discussions in the nineties and the two thousands.

00:13:29: And Neukölln was always...in the forefront of this fight against delinquency or bad migration already with a mayor that many people listening would not know but is actually quite known in German politics.

00:13:43: knows Buschkowski.

00:13:44: his name was Buschkovski.

00:13:44: he was already the Mayor in the two thousandths being very strong-handed.

00:13:50: The mayor of Neukülln?

00:13:51: The next Mayor of Neuquln was Giffey.

00:13:54: We became the mayor of Berlin.

00:13:57: And now it is Martin Hegel, who also all from the SPD and social democrats are tough-handed on crime.

00:14:08: They're

00:14:08: sort off in a right wing of the SPD.

00:14:09: Exactly!

00:14:10: The right wing which was quite strong in Neukölln.

00:14:16: they create this kind form of governmentality.

00:14:23: Arab men usually in their forties, fifties, sixties with a little belly.

00:14:28: And this is how we show that we are in contact with these people and This Is How We Try To Organize Things In Quiet Things Down?

00:14:37: I would say it's kind of like way Of working was on one hand A lot of oppression also Like A Lot Of Police Work But On The Other Hand It'S Kind Of Like Dialogue With The Community.

00:14:47: And This Is Where Mashadani Comes In.

00:14:51: So, what happens in the... He's coming here in two thousand and fifteen.

00:14:56: Because he is going to end up as a director of this school?

00:15:00: But that was his how-he got there kind

00:15:03: of thing.

00:15:04: One has to say exactly.

00:15:05: maybe it also if we say school all off time.. It IS FAEIN!

00:15:08: It is a private association with no control by the state.

00:15:12: There is no public money in it, actually or just a little bit since Mashadani became manager but not... ...it's total private association controlled by Mashadni nowadays.

00:15:23: so he is head of that and people on board are aligned with him.

00:15:30: So its also important.

00:15:31: we say school.

00:15:32: People said school sounds like something more important than it is only FAO in the end.

00:15:38: I'm going to talk about that.

00:15:40: So, Mashadani gets here into two thousand fifteen like many others and he becomes active Like Many Others That Come And goes through this school somehow has contacted because The Old Manager is also an Iraqi and Somehow they become very good friends.

00:15:58: then old manager Is getting older and weaker?

00:16:02: He actually Also passed away.

00:16:03: In Two Thousand Twenty Three Masjidani actually start taking over the school.

00:16:10: In the same time, he's organizing events in Nerkun is very much from the beginning and close contact with the mayor of Neuköll Martin Hickl.

00:16:17: This Is The Time Of Corona where you know there also like trying to approach the migrant communities quite a lot From Hickle.

00:16:24: it's important although Hickles area one person that is clearly very poor Israeli It's Also Trying To Have Like Some Arabs On His Sides Right?

00:16:34: And so there's a friendship that starts to happen.

00:16:37: We also see like, you know they're making this even photo online photos

00:16:40: of them traveling around

00:16:41: traveling round is making up.

00:16:43: There's a beautiful like Martin Hickles celebrating his birthday with them.

00:16:47: They made a photo.

00:16:48: they make the cake with the photo of Hickel and Mashadani on it

00:16:52: for the mayor's birthday.

00:16:53: for the

00:16:53: Mayor's Birthday.

00:16:54: It's very sweet.

00:16:55: Uh...it's actually nice friendship.

00:16:56: one could say A bit of a bromance in their curl.

00:17:01: In the same time at mashadani is continuing being active with other Arab communities and talking online, he's also writing articles before.

00:17:11: And after... How should I say it?

00:17:14: Not really interested in Israel or Palestine so much as actually when you talk about Israel or Palestinian.

00:17:19: He sounds like the normal Arab-Berliner So quite critical.

00:17:27: There was that change of his stance after October seventh where more explicitly pro-Israeli position, is that when this targeting of him?

00:17:39: Some which are obviously real in the form of graffiti and messaging.

00:17:43: And some of which seems now to have been inflated or invented but can you describe like the targetting?

00:17:53: After

00:17:54: October seventh, this happens first of all.

00:17:57: then in two thousand twenty-four.

00:17:58: There is this event that he does together with the Israeli embassy.

00:18:01: there are more and more critical voices in Neukölln?

00:18:05: There's a What's up message That was being sent around in arabic claiming that he is doing Zionist things And it is betrayed.

00:18:14: Arab cause no threats as much I know.

00:18:16: but like you know clearly saying this guy Is not legit criticizing him for what he's doing.

00:18:21: Of course people who knew him at before and we're working with him.

00:18:26: A lot of them also Palestinians cut ties with it, right?

00:18:30: And what I would see there is he becomes closer and closer to... What I would say are the institutions of Staatsräson in Germany which is a German.

00:18:43: support for Israel has been enshrined the German state.

00:18:48: Right,

00:18:48: almost the raison d'etre or reason for being of the German State being support for Israel in some kind of way.

00:18:54: so and I think it's even interesting we don't exactly have to get into but its interesting that there are sort of institutions which would more explicitly like enforce that position or try make sure everyone is maintaining that position.

00:19:09: But he seems to become aligned you're saying with some institutions that are sort of taking this particular line.

00:19:17: Exactly,

00:19:17: like he's been interviewed by specific journalists is also going to participate in some demonstrations as we said at least one demonstration for Israeli Demonstration.

00:19:29: and He claims the school very much talking about The School.

00:19:31: It always talks about the School Master.

00:19:34: it called a Deutsche Arabische Schule which is an Arabic language school working on weekends to call himself a doctor or professor, which is also quite fascinating.

00:19:48: But

00:19:48: that's very German isn't it?

00:19:50: Exactly and this was like you know in Germany A lot of times.

00:19:53: I think This Is The Best Integration.

00:19:56: In order To Speak Publicly You Need To Show That You Have Academic Credentials And People Tend To Use.

00:20:01: You Know I Am Zertifiziert Von I have Disdiploma.

00:20:05: It'S You Know.

00:20:06: It'S A Way To Do It Of Course He Noticed.

00:20:09: When he says I'm professor doctor, people take him even more seriously.

00:20:14: So exactly real integration into the German society?

00:20:16: Where exactly and how did it become a Professor in a Doctor is a fascinating story by itself.

00:20:21: He claims on his website till we asked him to get a Doctor title from University of Texas.

00:20:31: He claims to have studied, always focusing on extremism and terrorism.

00:20:35: He claims a lot of things in his biography also working for state authorities.

00:20:39: so you know he becomes this kind of person the personality that speaks with the authority of professor that speaks the authority an Arab mm-hmm That knows Islam that knows the extremists, and he repeats very clearly the talking points of what I would say is the Israel lobby or people who are very aligned with the Israeli lobby in Germany.

00:21:01: And

00:21:02: some of those things...I think i saw on your report That he welcomes a new Israeli era In The Middle East.

00:21:09: so it's one of these statements.

00:21:10: Oh!

00:21:10: I want to go back To the attack..and when you were reading about It When did You really start to have suspicions?

00:21:21: I had suspicions about this person before.

00:21:42: Like, this is really bad.

00:21:44: We have a person which I might politically dislike and i might be very question about what he's doing.

00:21:50: but of course trying to kill someone Is not good thing.

00:21:53: And honestly...I think that in the time right now when like tensions are going on In Berlin..i can't rule out The fact that some one will try to be violent towards Someone they describe as a Zionist!

00:22:07: And it probably you know Very

00:22:09: proserly!!

00:22:10: And we know that violence exists And we know that this kind of violence usually leads to more oppression and is very unhelpful for anyone who's trying to advance Palestinian human rights in town.

00:22:20: So my first reaction was shit like, This doesn't sound good?

00:22:25: I really hope That it's no one that the knowns involved there is somehow you know important in Palestinian structures or something Like this.

00:22:33: and then they didn't think about It too much To be honest.

00:22:36: um...and Then

00:22:40: And so the attack happened in November.

00:22:42: The

00:22:42: attacks happen in November, around late December I think beginning of January... ...I get a message from my friend saying this attack never happened and i can't go into very specific but like- But I'm not the only one who got this message.

00:22:58: clearly people in the police have known that this attack did not happen since the day after.

00:23:08: Yeah,

00:23:08: because they would have gone and got the footage.

00:23:10: They had done so.

00:23:10: this is also a thing.

00:23:11: if you want to fake anything of an attack or anything at all don't do it in the U-Bahn just like You know If you wanna be attacked we're gonna be claimed that something happened to you In the street in their park not in the u-ban.

00:23:25: And when I heard that i went back and read A big interview That was done with Maschilani for the Zoodo Chaitung.

00:23:33: It was a whole reportage.

00:23:34: It's page number three in the Zooday Chesaito and it is big thing, Tostan Schmitz who has like... The Zoodaya

00:23:40: Chesiton.

00:23:41: they are huge paper published by Snowden Files.

00:23:43: They're

00:23:45: very serious.

00:23:47: But there have this one journalist Who already wrote another article about how Neukölln being dangerous And how Islamist networks in Berlin specifically making life impossible in Naikon for anyone who thinks differently than them.

00:24:01: And that article published a few days actually before the Al-Masjidani attack and I was like, this is an anti-Naikon rant that's really embarrassing to the Zoodacha?

00:24:11: Of course some weeks later there were these articles on Masjidan himself by the same journalist where... ...I just read it!

00:24:21: Oh my god!

00:24:22: This guy is pathological liar And it was kind of funny.

00:24:26: Doesn't he, um... He claims that Markus Söder invited him to live in Bavaria or something?

00:24:31: Yes!

00:24:31: So this is one the many-many things In the article which are The funny thing with the articles.

00:24:38: actually the Markus Sörder thing just sounds so Unbelievable by itself.

00:24:42: like I was called by Markus Sötter.

00:24:43: It told me the Berlin police will not protect me and i should move to Bavaria.

00:24:47: Who's president of Bavarian?

00:24:48: Yeah

00:24:48: who's the President of B.. This Just Sounds Crazy.

00:24:51: If I Was a Journalist And I am a journalist and someone, you're going to tell me this story.

00:24:55: I'll be like, This is fascinating!

00:24:57: Let me

00:24:57: check.".

00:24:59: And i'll call the office of Söder... ...and ask them hey was there a phone conversation?

00:25:05: They will say no.

00:25:08: Some other things we were saying earlier about German investigative journalism.

00:25:11: Yeah

00:25:11: it's very basic thing just collaborating with these big issues.

00:25:15: If i'll tell you Merkel called yesterday.

00:25:17: she said that she wants to hang out.

00:25:19: You'd be really cool.

00:25:22: Let me check that.

00:25:23: So, I checked it by the way and they said

00:25:28: no.

00:25:28: No contact?

00:25:29: They could have lied whatever but like... That should be a part of article.

00:25:34: But he claimed other things about his biography didn't make a lot of sense.

00:25:41: So

00:25:41: he claims that he was very pro-Israeli already in Iraq and was persecuted, actually stayed like... He was two years in prison and was tortured daily for his pro Israeli approach.

00:25:52: I was like.

00:25:53: this sounds very interesting because i have never heard about such cases in Iraq before.. Iraq does have clear laws against normalization with Israel but still it's just didn't seem fit!

00:26:05: He claims to have worked for the security ministry services, different ones in Iraq.

00:26:16: In the same times he claims they've been imprisoned and claimed to be threatened which is actually.

00:26:22: people are being threatened in Iraq but still there were a lot of things that just sounded off without me knowing anything.

00:26:31: I was amazed by how someone can make this interview.

00:26:37: This sounds unreal.

00:26:40: And this is one of the things that like always happens to me with German movies, there's stories where I was like.

00:26:45: don't you understand?

00:26:47: It sounds weird and this was one of those cases.

00:26:50: so i start looking around.

00:26:52: then i looked at his facebook.

00:26:53: that was exactly Facebook actually showed me The same thing as what i'm looking for.

00:26:57: That's how Facebook works.

00:26:58: Showed me a thing he says There Is A Network in Berlin by Islamists and Green Party members, and Hezbollah.

00:27:05: And Espadeh and Hamas people who work at the institutions all together.

00:27:09: they're called The Army of the Friends of Muhammad .

00:27:13: They are trying to islamize the town or something like this.

00:27:17: I mean it sounds like kind old specter of Judeo-Bolshevism but now with an Islamic slant

00:27:25: Like it sounds really, really crazy.

00:27:31: A few days later he wrote about how... He doesn't get his driving license from the Driving License Authority in Berlin because they are Hamas aligned and is being punished for its pro-Israeli approach.

00:27:45: And this where I was like okay there's some things here that are quite interesting Also In the Zoodochit Zeitung.

00:27:50: what actually one interesting detail Was That The Police was quite reluctant to talk about the case.

00:27:57: And usually we know that the Berlin police is very happy to talk cases when it fits their political story and not so much what its nuts, actually... So fact of the police was quite hesitant.

00:28:08: for me a good sign.

00:28:09: okay maybe this thief I got they attacked didn't really happen.

00:28:13: there's something into.

00:28:14: how do you find out?

00:28:16: And in your report you say that you spoke with a police source or somebody who had seen the footage, right?

00:28:22: Because when you wrote this thing have already seen it.

00:28:25: No I've not seen the footage and there was actually big risk we were taking.

00:28:31: So i got three different sources telling me about attack seeing video Three independent sources.

00:28:41: They all see it.

00:28:46: Then when I had those three and when I knew that the police is actually interrogating El Mashadani for false... False accusation, false accusation.

00:28:55: Only at that point we got the okay to publish this story.

00:28:58: And were your editors nervous?

00:29:00: Yes!

00:29:02: Of course they're-I was also nervous This thing.. I was looking at his guy a lot of stuff.

00:29:07: you know it's very hard prove someone lying about his biography or not telling truth.

00:29:11: i can just say what see.

00:29:12: I can just say there's no proofs.

00:29:14: You know, i was working and trying to find out also doing quite a lot of research in arabic what we found about him?

00:29:22: And we did find quite alot but nothing that anyway has.

00:29:26: well let us not the story he is telling.

00:29:30: so you know before your write about someone or if they might be very damaging I'm also worried.

00:29:38: It's something that journalists need to think about when we do damage in stories on individuals, is there anyone here who can support them?

00:29:45: Is this part of the story like?

00:29:48: are you really sure?

00:29:50: which details am i going to put inside the funniest details, if they're very embarrassing.

00:29:57: And some of this stuff I didn't put inside right?

00:29:58: Like i think it's like also a thing... But

00:30:01: you are willing to say them here today?

00:30:02: No no!

00:30:03: Some things came out later.. His writings and his very stupid writing about politics and all is quite.. They came later in other articles.

00:30:12: So anyway when we published that We Did Not See The Video and then the video did come out was leaked somehow too.. The Tagess Spiegel actually..

00:30:22: They published the footage.

00:30:24: Let's hear it very clearly.

00:30:25: What is the footage?

00:30:25: So, the footage shows very clearly and also I... Yeah!

00:30:29: The footage shows that he was waiting for the U-BAN.

00:30:36: The U-ban gets there.

00:30:37: The u-ban stops.

00:30:39: The doors open.

00:30:41: He goes inside.

00:30:44: a person who comes from on the u-band track like goes inside probably patches is back and goes out.

00:30:58: That's what we see, that's it!

00:31:03: And I looked at the... on The Tiger Spiegel Art School.

00:31:06: they only have stills so you can see exactly what you've described.

00:31:09: but there was some talk of like a gesture or something that this guy did.

00:31:13: do we think he being aggressive?

00:31:15: Or friendly who are completely unclear about their relationship between these two individuals?

00:31:20: Yeah So..the Tiger Spiegel claims He was doing a gesture that supposed to attack her.

00:31:28: Little gesture pointing into his eyes and pointed at him, right?

00:31:32: Like something like we watch you

00:31:35: so

00:31:35: clearly some kind of an aggressive gesture.

00:31:39: I would say Something.

00:31:40: That is if i would If that Would happen To me in the uban i might feel anxious i might Feel attacked In A way.

00:31:51: One could claim it might be criminally relevant or not.

00:31:53: This is something for the police to decide, but this was not an attempted murder and Not in attack.

00:32:03: So And this is something and this has for me the fascinating thing The police had this video since day two of the attack.

00:32:12: so how could it be?

00:32:14: That the whole Berlin policy where we were talking about like that, The rise of anti-Semitism.

00:32:18: They attempted murder Of a schoolteach A school principal in Neukölln Just because he's not against Jews.

00:32:25: We have this all media circus right?

00:32:27: And police knows This is lies.

00:32:29: These are all lies and says nothing.

00:32:34: The ways that he was sort of honored, He got an award from the mayor of Berlin.

00:32:40: He was nominated for like a federal cross-of-merit or something?

00:32:45: From the president of Germany

00:32:47: Just days before the attack... ...he got a badge of honor from the city of Berlin A month after that.. ..he also got by his professor doctor right His name is always Professor Dr Hodeffel Mascherani.

00:33:00: He got an award, the needle of honor of Ehrenagel off Neukölln.

00:33:06: And clearly he was supposed to get more and more prizes because that's what you do right?

00:33:10: You just give a lot of prices.

00:33:11: this old politics shows that they're interested in person... ...and all of them all of the mayors like the mayor of Neukülln, the Mayor Berlin were talking also about several politicians from the SPDN from the CDU who courted his guy all time are completely quiet and do not speak about the fact that this guy is clearly a fraudster, like clearly lied about his academic titles.

00:33:39: About an attack that did not happen?

00:33:41: And at the police knew about this attack.

00:33:43: That's not happening for four months!

00:33:45: I want to go back because it was big issue as A lot of things happened in Berlin.

00:33:53: We don't know who is the attacker what going on.

00:33:54: This is very normal.

00:33:55: There were threats against journalists placards, we don't know who they are.

00:34:00: There are conspiracy theories which I usually dismiss of saying it's the Israeli lobby itself that does like specific threatening stuff in order to create an atmosphere that will make repressive steps toward Palestinians more plausible.

00:34:19: and there is this false flag ideas all off time coming up.

00:34:23: you hear quite a lot from activists.

00:34:26: See that as a kind of like, very trying to protect yourself saying our scene would not do this.

00:34:32: We are the good ones.

00:34:33: This is stupid.

00:34:34: It's too neat somehow Too

00:34:36: neat.

00:34:36: Yeah Like The false flag narrative Is usually something I Do NOT follow.

00:34:40: In this case we have clearly...I will Not say A FALSE Flag But like Clearly?

00:34:43: Well i mean He's- he's the flag and put in the flag but it was..he's the guy He lies!

00:34:50: He's getting more prizes And the police is quiet.

00:34:54: Yeah, and there's no repercussions.

00:34:55: There is no repercussion.

00:34:56: No one has been fired for this that the mayor The head of police in Berlin can hide his information.

00:35:01: She knew about it clearly And she hides this performance.

00:35:05: You know I live in Neukönne.

00:35:06: It also one thing we talk a lot like security feelings.

00:35:11: How do you feel?

00:35:12: Are we feeling secure?

00:35:13: A lot of Jews are unsafe.

00:35:17: When I hear someone is attacked and there's an attempt to murder, it feels a little bit unsafe.

00:35:20: You know?

00:35:20: Like... By the way this was reported in Israeli press as well.

00:35:24: like you know pro-Israeli schoolmaster has been attacked!

00:35:30: Did they ever think maybe its better for our safety to tell us that this was

00:35:34: false?!

00:35:35: Why did i need do this

00:35:36: job!?

00:35:36: why did i needed to do investigation

00:35:38: right??

00:35:39: And this what really till today is not people who are fraudsters or like the Hochstapler A story, people like to see this.

00:35:49: one guy climbs and falls.

00:35:53: The much more worrying thing here is not the guy who climbs and fall but the institutions that made him climb awarded him protected until our article was published actually till we saw it in the video.

00:36:10: Exactly, I mean i think that's a great example of exactly like how the network for all these things are ready to amplify someone and then even after it is shown he has never really retracted or kind.

00:36:26: So what do you thing this tells us about?

00:36:29: Berlin and Neukölln today.

00:36:31: Well,

00:36:32: it tells us a few things.

00:36:33: first of all I think that the idea is That if there's consequences for anything in Germany is about lying About your PhD.

00:36:40: Don't do that because that's the only way to get someone down In this country.

00:36:45: They'll do they will do but you catch them.

00:36:48: It's not all of them.

00:36:50: so don't lie about your page or your professorship.

00:36:55: Don't fake an attack on the U-Bahn, we've

00:36:56: learned that.

00:36:57: Exactly don't fake and attacking the u-ban if they ever happen!

00:36:59: Fake it somewhere else.

00:37:01: There's more cameras now like you know.

00:37:04: be better in faking stuff.

00:37:06: Let's put it this way.

00:37:07: What I would say much more interesting This guy was spreading those crazy conspiracy theories.

00:37:14: They

00:37:15: want to make one person emblematic of a whole community And then hear from them as their authority.

00:37:20: Then listen for these narratives.

00:37:21: The narrative is often the one that they've already presumed it was going

00:37:24: to be.

00:37:24: Exactly, and this is also a thing like when we notice who does German journalists talk with?

00:37:28: The most uh...the Palestinian that's more interviewed than anyone else is Ahmad Mansour A very pro-Israeli figure Very you know..a very Islam critical figure as he would say.

00:37:40: Those kind of people these kinds of like y'know the heroes out of this committee.

00:37:44: I'm not saying some activities are all false but its very much clearly journalism should do more then that.

00:37:52: Okay, that's really interesting.

00:37:54: and I also wanted to say there is no one more conspiratorial than someone doing a conspiracy.

00:37:59: You know what i mean?

00:38:02: But okay you used the work in Berlin on like anti-Semitism as progressive social cause building coalitions of kind of community organizer And do feel for you differently now.

00:38:21: or that the cause, which what should be absolutely social good has been sort of weaponized in ways... Has your feeling about that cause changed because of the German reaction to October seventh and all of their networks have been activated in its wake?

00:38:42: Yeah.

00:38:42: I would say that the fascinating thing like working on anti-Semitism racism in Berlin any Germany in general is sincere is actually a form of specialization in anti-Semitism that has something very little to do with Jews.

00:38:58: So, anti-semitism... It's like you can go to university and study Africa studies and anti-racist studies on love.

00:39:03: the professors are white?

00:39:05: That happens in Germany by way quite often right!

00:39:07: Like it's almost the same as like with anti semitism being part of social theory.

00:39:12: that has very little.

00:39:13: One of the thinkers that I am very much influenced by on this question is Aladlapidot, who's a Jewish-Israeli philosopher.

00:39:21: Who is a Talmud scholar actually and writes a lot about how anti-antisemitism just like... Is very much an non-Jewish way of dealing with Jews And also somehow antisemitic by its nature.

00:39:33: What i'm trying to say but it might be this is like that antisemitism.

00:39:36: The idea what is antisemitism was always very much detached from the Jewish lived experience in Berlin, my own communities that I am a part of.

00:39:48: It's always quite ridiculous for me to like...I'm surrounded by Jews quite a lot in Neukölln as self-hating Jew as i am!

00:39:57: Like have quiet a lot of Jewish friends and Hebrew speaking friends.

00:40:00: And this idea living under constant fear being oppressed is just not the way we live reality And understanding that this kind of discourse, the German discourse has very little to do with us.

00:40:15: I think that view was clear through activism and October seven more or less made it a bit more acute in many ways but we were already there before.

00:40:26: What you see is also connected to the Machudan thing.

00:40:29: like anti-Semitism became an industry And fighting anti-Semitism, we're talking about millions of millions of state money and non-state money being pushed into what is called antisemitismus bekämpfum.

00:40:42: The struggle to battle against anti-semitism which most of the beneficiaries are non-Jews Which is fascinating for me.

00:40:50: You know it would have been much cheaper just give every Jew in Germany like two thousand euros yearly than We not so many here by the way now were like one hundred thousand twenty, maybe one hundred and twenty thousand.

00:41:04: Anyway then actually you know supporting this huge industries of like so-called experts And with these kind of expert on extremism, expert in anti-semitism all those experts a lot them are not actualy experts or anything.

00:41:17: They're

00:41:17: just some digital hate who then appear to be being quite hateful online?

00:41:21: Yeah exactly!

00:41:22: So we have... We see it right now the big scandal that is going on in Berlin With how his monies are been distributed.

00:41:27: You Know A Lot Of These Monies Goes To People That Are in many ways and are actually very hateful, have a clear agenda which is poor war anti-migration or at least anti Islam.

00:41:41: And this kind of industry like state power that has been assumed by has very little to do, not entirely nothing but very little with actual Jewish life in Erkun or Berlin.

00:41:55: And this is for me also the interesting story here.

00:41:57: it's like we have many Jews that are not part of these discussions and they're not being asked to comment.

00:42:03: there's only specific organizations speaking their names claims to their expertise that are I would say questionable at best.

00:42:22: Yeah, i think it's a really good point how the networks that try to combat anti-Semitism often sort of bypass ignore or even kind of completely aren't responsive to Jewish voices you know like they're not interested.

00:42:34: actually its much easier to worry about Jews without asking them.

00:42:40: but um yeah...I suppose do you think living in Neukurn today and working on this subject any causes for optimism.

00:42:50: You know, it's been a bleak couple of years.

00:42:53: do you see anything changing or progressing?

00:42:58: So I would say one thing that i was surprised by in my article specifically on Masher Dany did.

00:43:02: there were consequences.

00:43:05: It's very clear.

00:43:05: First of all, Neukölln doesn't call him a professor or doctor anymore on their website and there is probably a police interrogation into some his claims against them.

00:43:14: Some politicians had to distance themselves somehow from him.

00:43:17: so we do see that you know reporting does actually have consequences.

00:43:22: even the Bill Zeitung or like... Even the Springer had to report on this issue Of course without mentioning it was our first time doing it but still I'm happy they did!

00:43:35: had to report on it.

00:43:36: So those things happen, and I think we can see also with the anti-semitism scandal right now of this funding scandal that there is actually reporting... And there are some consequences for some of the most ridiculous violations of a funding going on.

00:43:54: so in that sense i would say its very important keep looking at it.

00:43:57: you know It's alot of work.

00:43:58: I did this work with a colleague, Daniel Bucks who works a lot on Islamophobia in and right about it for many years.

00:44:08: But also you know... A lot of his work is done by talking to different activists and journalists.

00:44:12: And there's what i think quite interesting that we have networks of journalist In Berlin which are very supportive of each other specifically because the situation for journalism so dire when comes those issues.

00:44:24: So..I'm talking here today but like not buy myself.

00:44:30: And so that is kind of a way to see optimism.

00:44:34: I also think things will change and we have another election coming up, maybe some of the political parties who are very much involved with this stuff will be voted out by government.

00:44:46: one can hope for

00:44:46: it.

00:44:47: Do you think they'll have new mayor in Neukölln?

00:44:49: Everything's possible here in Neu-Kölln.

00:44:54: One thing i would say which is needed German citizens also to vote.

00:45:01: Not a lot of people know it, but if you're European citizen sadly not UK.

00:45:05: But Irish people and anyone else from the European Union can vote in the local elections in Neukölln.

00:45:13: so... So do?

00:45:15: Yeah!

00:45:15: If you can yeah And anywhere else of course in the city like it's- You can't vote for the mayor or Berlin election but you could go for the local district elections.

00:45:27: Okay,

00:45:28: well thanks very much for coming.

00:45:29: Yossi Bartal go read his stuff intact in the diasporist and anything else that's going

00:45:34: on?

00:45:34: No, it's not Sean

00:45:35: Sorry?

00:45:35: No it is Deutschland.

00:45:37: Yeah

00:45:37: And Freitag.

00:45:38: It was great being here.

00:45:39: thank you so much.

00:45:40: Thank You Bye.

00:45:42: Thanks For Listening To The Heist Podcast.

00:45:44: We Want to Say Thanks Again To Yossy Bartal For His Time.

00:45:47: Check Out His Whole Article On heisperlinne.com.

00:45:51: You can also, don't forget to check out the other two episodes that we published.

00:45:55: who properly launched a podcast.

00:45:56: One with Heba Jamal about Palestinian life in Berlin after October seventh and one with Ben Miller about AFD and weaponizing queer politics.

00:46:05: but yeah thanks again for listening.

00:46:08: you can sign up for heist at heisberlin.com.

00:46:11: Check us on Instagram.

00:46:12: We really appreciate your helping me spread word.

00:46:14: getting this podcast going will be back into weeks within another episode.

00:46:17: see ya then.