How it feels to be Palestinian in Berlin

00:00:00: Palestinians have become a nuisance for German society, and we are the epitome of this imported anti-Semitism.

00:00:20: Welcome to Episode One Of The Heist Podcast.

00:00:23: Conversations about Berlin in English that you won't hear anywhere else.

00:00:26: I'm Ruthie Weisman.

00:00:27: I am Ben Schumann Stoller This week.

00:00:34: Heba is a journalist who wrote a feature for Heist back in April about how it feels to be Palestinian in Berlin.

00:00:40: This is the topic we've been wanting to cover for really long time, because censorship and fear of getting canceled then losing funding has meant that there's very little coverage on what its like here as a Palestinian

00:00:51: Which was pretty shocking considering Berlin had the biggest population of Palestinians anywhere in Europe.

00:00:57: That's partly why this was the very first feature we commissioned when we started Heist, and why it is our first conversation.

00:01:02: We're bringing on to the podcast!

00:01:04: You can read HEPA's full piece on heistberlin.com And you also sign up for a newsletter with all of our stories, tips about what to do in the weekend, some funny little bits of online discourse about Berlin... lotsa good stuff!

00:01:18: Yep..and find us on Instagram at HeistBerlin.

00:01:22: But now here are me & Peter Matthews with Have A Jamal Habid Jamal, thank you so much for coming on the Heist podcast.

00:01:32: The very first guest ever!

00:01:33: Maybe we can start just by... Can you introduce yourself?

00:01:35: ...the way that you like to be introduced and explain how long have been writing about the Palestinian experience in Germany?

00:01:42: I Have been writing About Palestinians In Germany Yeah as a journalist myself since Since two thousand twenty since i moved here.

00:01:51: one of them most you know, interesting things that I found was this concept of trying to understand like the Palestinian community.

00:01:58: The diaspora where they located.

00:02:00: what are they doing?

00:02:01: And it was very natural.

00:02:03: Everything i did is simply by communicating with people asking them about their experiences and ask them about the academic landscape in particular which was one...I think..the first article ever written about repression against Palestinians academics within German universities.

00:02:21: And once I sort of did that piece, it really opened the floodgates of understanding how criminalized and repressed actually the Palestinian community and their supporters are in Germany.

00:02:35: Ever since the genocide started, I've been plunged into the community here myself experiencing the repression myself to be Palestinian in Germany.

00:02:50: I suppose that was one of the questions when we reached out for you.

00:02:52: so, right this article?

00:02:53: We just wanted to know the basic thing like how have the last sort two and a half years felt as a Palestinian in Berlin?

00:03:01: And what did you find out in the reporting off the article?

00:03:06: You know A lot times when journalists tend to ask these questions You know, try to find hope at least in the midst of all this.

00:03:17: It was a bittersweet process probably more bitter than sweet.

00:03:23: A lot people felt that if there's a ceasefire The German media landscape or political landscape can truly now see and understand what we've been trying To highlight over the past two-and-a half years And unfortunately a lot have communicated.

00:03:42: they feel more isolated than they did.

00:03:45: Things have not gotten better and Palestinians on the ground are sort of forced into these parallel societies really, They can only rely on themselves.

00:03:57: yes they do rely in each other but mostly I feel like they rely on them because it's been almost impossible to create infrastructure necessary to build community and those that have been trying probably one of the worst examples.

00:04:40: There's a large Palestinian diaspora there, and a lot of them feel like they do live in this dystopia.

00:04:48: it looks really bleak right now.

00:04:50: One of the strange circumstances of the Palestinian community is that there isn't even recorded data saying exactly how big their community was because Germany doesn't record demographic data Like it's the categorizing people as stateless or undetermined and robbed of a normal life in some kind.

00:05:13: You're allowed to be here physically, but you're not allowed have access too.

00:05:18: what the rest of the People Here Have Access To?

00:05:20: Yeah I mean... As i said The Palestine Diaspora In Germany is massive.

00:05:25: It still one Of the largest Palestinian diasporas outside the Middle East And South America Its Largest That Exists In Europe And we actually don't know how many Palestinians roughly live here.

00:05:37: Some are estimating that there is a hundred thousand, um... There are numbers that say less.

00:05:42: There isn't any formal census that actually determines who's a Palestinian mostly because as you said they're categorized as stateless people or undetermined and they aren't even classified as national identity.

00:05:58: There are even some Palestinians that have officially been recorded as other nationalities, such as Syrians.

00:06:04: Palestinians who fled the Syrian war back in two thousand eleven came to Germany and they're categorized as Syrian refugees so that process of lack documentation.

00:06:17: our existence in Germany weighs down heavily on community.

00:06:22: how it feels and articulated and manifested within policies, the political strikes and media landscape is that Palestinians have become a nuisance for German society.

00:06:34: And we are the epitome of this imported anti-Semitism.

00:06:38: there has been public debates about not letting Palestinian men women and children escape war right?

00:06:45: Even this concept of innocent civilians coming to Germany to seek refuge often heavily debated in something A majority, a majority of the political elite have considered to be dangerous for their society and for this idea that they will bring this anti-Semitism with them.

00:07:05: It is one more like outrageous political framings we hear... Which

00:07:09: ones?

00:07:10: The idea of imported antisemitism as if anti-semitism was something foreign to German soil or whatever.

00:07:17: Friedrich Merz used it on his trip to the

00:07:19: U.S.,

00:07:20: spoke about, but even like on the left Gregor Gizy recently uh spoke about again...

00:07:26: Like in ...the way you were also talking before Haba-like.

00:07:29: It reminded me of those two thousand sixteen pictures and scenes Of Germans awaiting Syrians arriving at trains.

00:07:35: Well

00:07:35: welcoming culture.

00:07:36: Yeah

00:07:36: exactly The Komsk Kultur.

00:07:38: And how quickly that turned right?

00:07:39: I mean why do you think Palestinians are seen differently than Syrians or other immigrants, especially from similar areas.

00:07:48: There's a lot to unpack there.

00:07:49: I mean just sort of set the stage.

00:07:50: Palestinians have been in this country for-for a long time.

00:07:54: A lot of Palestinians actually came In the fifties and sixties as students.

00:07:58: they came on student visas To study um a lot of them studying to be you know doctors and engineers in Germany.

00:08:05: And what ended up happening was from that group of people, they weren't able to return.

00:08:12: So Israel created this concept.

00:08:15: if you've been out at the country for a certain amount years and lose your residency or papers... A lot times people found themselves stranded in Germany.

00:08:24: There's another phase during the Lebanese Civil War where Palestinians came to Germany as refugees seeking asylum form war a lot of the chaos that was happening in the region at the time.

00:08:37: And so Germany ended up not welcoming them, they gave them Dull-Dung status which is toleration status for these specifics out people because they didn't classify as asylum seekers and so they don't think their conditions warranted granting for asylum.

00:08:53: So they wanted to send back to Lebanon but Lebanon didn't sign the return agreement.

00:08:58: They want it.

00:08:58: get rid those Palestinians.

00:09:03: the other phase of immigrants and refugees that you have in Germany.

00:09:09: And so, you know, for some it probably isn't very clear right because how can you accept other Muslim Arab bodies like Syrians back in the year and then say yeah these Palestinians are different.

00:09:27: And that obviously has a lot to do with German memory culture.

00:09:34: After World War II, Germany was trying to establish themselves as a democratic world leader again.

00:09:40: And I think that obviously stood in their ways.

00:09:43: is there very dark genocidal history of soldering six million people.

00:09:50: and essentially what was their solution?

00:09:52: To get out of the well Their solution was to become Zionist the so-called Jewish state and believe that Israel sort of speaks for Jewish people across the world.

00:10:04: And, and a lot of people reference Deutche Staatsgaison, even though it's not illegally binding anything.

00:10:22: It is like this manifesto in a way that isn't legally binding or necessarily resolution but almost ethos to the state where it is forbidden to genuinely critique Israel, stand against Israel although they are committing genocide international human right crimes.

00:10:39: so Germany has this problem now where you have a very large diaspora in order for you to pretend like your denazifying, which obviously is anyone fluent and history understands that Germany never fully denazified.

00:10:56: take a shortcut, which is to support the state of Israel.

00:10:59: Now with these Palestinian refugees there are these pesky nuisance—these people that are in the country and have their own parallel societies.

00:11:07: A lot The same streets that are heavily criminalized, and now we learn the police are trying to use AI surveillance.

00:11:19: To detect people who join protest or Palestine related events Or political events in general And our Now being heavily used against this same community.

00:11:29: So this transformation, when we ask why have they acted different to Syrians?

00:11:34: Why had the act of differed to Ukrainians.

00:11:35: Well it's because their political agenda.

00:11:37: They were obviously against Assad and Syria And felt that it was within their geopolitical interest To accept refugees.

00:11:44: It is obvious a good thing not just anything about That but shows the stark contrast.

00:11:49: But if I'm right in thinking like A lot of these kind of anti-anti semitism bureaucracy Was built up exactly at same time as Refugees were coming from the Syrian civil war.

00:11:59: like they built, there was a sort of idea that I will allow these refugees to come in from The Middle East but we'll also build these structures.

00:12:09: To make sure their behaving In ways where you want them to behave or basically police Their political opinions.

00:12:20: Obviously, to be.

00:12:22: after nine eleven there was this classification of Palestinians have consistently before nine eleven were these radical communists.

00:12:31: You know extremist right?

00:12:33: That that was sort of the classification of what it meant to be a Palestinian although After Nine Eleven and Sort Of became This Arab Muslim figure which has been you Know infiltrating in the language of people, this sort radical Islam terrorism.

00:12:52: It's mostly associated with being Arab and Muslim And Germans are not very good at differentiating between Syrians and Palestinians.

00:13:02: It's not as if they have some sort of radar, but what they do consistently regurgitate is this concept try to be less Muslim and look less Arab.

00:13:20: And they're the ones that maybe could be incorporated back into our

00:13:24: society.".

00:13:25: But I kind of want to talk about The Peace also, so we can talk more about your reporting?

00:13:29: I'm curious like were there any support systems or perspectives that surprised you?

00:13:35: Or was it anything that you wanna highlight here?

00:13:36: I

00:13:40: mean, again to sort of reiterate it's really hard time for Palestinians.

00:13:44: They need a lot of resources and a lot community support that unfortunately doesn't exist.

00:13:50: but one thing i did find is obviously anyone who lives in Berlin has trouble with the law just because if you're Palestinian or are active against this situation then probably will have trouble with.

00:14:07: It's an association that was founded in Berlin by people who felt they needed to uplift the community, you know and having some sort of financial stability for people where The concept is to go back onto streets.

00:14:22: And it still continues to be active.

00:14:24: so these people help raise money for legal funds To pay lawyers Especially if your facing a bogus or criminal accusation And so they financially support these individuals.

00:14:40: I think this is one of the most valuable resources that currently exists for the community, just so people don't have to necessarily fear getting into any sort of legal issue like i've seen... People have to pay thousands and thousands fines for freedom speech saying from The River To The Sea or speaking Arabic Yeah, exactly.

00:15:01: We're speaking Arabic or protest and so this I think the association has truly sort of been a buffer to help people do the political work that they want to do And have someone else focus on helping pay for these pesky fines That try To keep us bounded in not protest Or speak out.

00:15:20: There is another group truly interesting and I've seen them in action.

00:15:27: They're called court watch, it's a group of just people who go into courtrooms document the cases, because most of times when an activist for example goes to a courtroom they are not given like the notes after.

00:15:45: Sometimes don't really understand what has happened and so there are volunteers that document everything transpired.

00:15:54: There was this one time where I was in a court room you know For someone who is being accused of assaulting an officer It was a very fascinating watch, because the person from Court Watch was documenting everything.

00:16:09: And the police officer who is being accused came in as witness and didn't know her name, did it remember what happened?

00:16:17: Did I remember if he was hit or ultimately even admitted that she could have been acting in

00:16:22: self-defense?".

00:16:24: Still... The person found guilty of assaulting an officer after that incredible confession by the police witness.

00:16:33: So if we didn't have someone to document that, take meticulous notes and timestamps in things like this no one would've known it was a result of that case!

00:16:43: The last thing I just want say is there are amazing individuals, Palestinians who do great work which i highlight on the piece...the only thing though..I had very beautiful people interviewed pull their interview in the end or even change their name and fears of retaliation because they felt that if they were to talk about what they're doing, which is entirely legal nothing as illegal going on here.

00:17:09: They still feel like there will be victims of repression where people go after them for doing very basic community work.

00:17:17: So there have been times where even people who trust me, who trust my work ethic still want it to be pulled from the piece because they feel that any exposure is bad exposure.

00:17:29: Do you think about going back to America ever?

00:17:33: Yeah!

00:17:35: Well... It's getting a little harder now.

00:17:38: I mean its not great either.

00:17:40: Oh man, last time I went.

00:17:43: I was detained for a couple hours because of my journalism work.

00:17:47: so it's...I don't know right now.

00:17:50: Ask me again in a couple

00:17:52: years.".

00:17:53: You said this at the very beginning that Palestinians live in a dystopia like dark parallel universe and Berlin but also there is lot hope when you see communities working together?

00:18:05: Where do your hopeful hopes come

00:18:07: from?".

00:18:07: There is one person I want to highlight at the piece.

00:18:09: Her name is Perry, she's an artist and filmmaker Palestinian who has truly tried to provide safe spaces for other Palestinian youth in particular.

00:18:23: And um...I find a story like hers to be incredibly fascinating.

00:18:28: so i interviewed Perry For this piece two weeks after there was actually a hip-piece on her In German newspaper where for the same art exhibition that I tried to highlight, The piece was like oh look anti-Semitism and radical hate are being displayed in theater spaces in Berlin.

00:18:47: And the piece was actually about how no Palestinians or not censored actually looked at them doing radical stuff in theatre this place.

00:18:59: It was a fascinating juxtaposition because I interviewed Perry and the whole point of this art exhibit, it's to sort-of take youth that have been criminalized by the state.

00:19:09: And give them another means of articulating their grief and articulating there sadness in articulating what has been happening and they're anger in

00:19:18: particular.".

00:19:20: That was essentially the whole points very specific.

00:19:22: you know our exception.

00:19:23: They were not actors or people who are familiar with artistic exhibitions in this way.

00:19:31: And the hit piece was trying to say that this was a perpetrator victim reversal because these youth have been criminalized by police and their criminals, look at them trying.

00:19:46: It's literally a whole point of someone like her trying to bring people who have been in trouble by the law and especially underage kids, that don't necessarily know how is a problem for this specific journalist or opinion commentator, whatever it was.

00:20:12: But there was another thing—this oxymoron of such a piece like that.

00:20:16: I don't even know if that's the right term but consistently when there are successful attempts to break into theater spaces, public spaces institutions with exhibitions or let's say a policy and book author gets an award.

00:20:33: There is oftentimes incredible backlash that says you know oh look these people are not censored in fact they dominate this field.

00:20:41: then they're spreading their hatred And often times those don't get funding anymore are rescinded.

00:20:50: and it's this vicious cycle of every time we try to be in a space, we are criticized for.

00:20:56: It was just really fascinating and deeply disturbing sequence events that I witnessed with Perry in particular who is the fantastic artist trying to create these safe spaces.

00:21:11: I mean, i'm sure you've been following the kind of anti-anti-semitism funding scandals when they're giving all this money out to people combating antisemitism.

00:21:20: And then some of them...I remember there was one sort platform called online hate and the operator had been expressing incredible online hate just calling people goblins or using real slurs.

00:21:35: It seems like that double standard is really like a parent of what you can say if, the sort-of things that are allowed to say.

00:21:43: If you toe the line and not allow it to say... ...if your on the outside.

00:21:50: Yeah, like Germany has these Nazi era laws which are it's called the Beleidigung Law.

00:21:55: Which is insult law.

00:21:57: so essentially It's legal to insult someone either to their face or online Or any sort of or inaccurate categorization.

00:22:05: and there was this one case where Someone I know Called a known Zionist provocator that comes To our protest in disrupts.

00:22:12: he call them a genocide supporter And That person Was found guilty and fined three thousand six hundred euros for that specific incident.

00:22:23: And the most interesting part is... all of us within our political group here in Monheim, we have been called Jew-haters and Hamas supporters.

00:22:31: And terrorist sympathizers—you know every name under the sun!

00:22:35: And lawyers and legal experts say that we will lose if we take any of them to court.

00:22:41: so it just shows the dichotomy of such a thing like... We are people who can be insulted and can be insanely critiqued but It's obviously a great big problem.

00:22:55: So I guess this is the last question, then yeah elections are coming in Berlin and i wonder if i mean do Palestinians in berlin have a particular stake?

00:23:07: In that?

00:23:08: does the landscape feel closed off?

00:23:09: ?I think there's problems and complications in every direction but

00:23:13: one thing about The Elections like.

00:23:14: it's time where Berlin gonna get to decide how you know voters want to see their city be for the next five years.

00:23:20: You know, like what city do people want to live in?

00:23:21: And that different parties are gonna spend the next months saying here's where we think this should look like you more cars less cars whatever.

00:23:28: What Should We Be Looking For From The Parties ?

00:23:29: What Is A Vision Of The City That is Less Distopian ?

00:23:33: The one biggest thing is having politicians.

00:23:37: they're not fanning the flames of war first.

00:23:41: and secondly There has been insane laws that have passed, give police way more authority to brutalize people and have these artificial intelligence surveillance around peoples' communities.

00:23:54: Surveillance around Neukonenkreuzberg which is a large migrant population.

00:23:59: people are willing to vote, they're going to look at individuals who have at least this concept of mind.

00:24:07: Let's not consistently attack migrants for existing.

00:24:11: let's not give police more power to brutalize and surveil protesters.

00:24:18: but another thing I feel like is that people really feel politically disenfranchised as a whole?

00:24:36: Thanks for listening to the first episode of The Heist podcast.

00:24:39: If you know someone else who's interested in uncensored Berlin news and feature stories, let them know that we're here.

00:24:46: You could also send tips and pitches to us at helloatheisberlinne.com.

00:24:51: Yeah And we want to say thanks again to Habit Jamal for taking the time to chat with us Once again.

00:24:55: her piece is live on heisberlynne.

00:24:57: com and will link it again In the show notes.

00:24:59: this shows recorded in the Kolo Media studio in chapters bookshop in Moabit, Berlin.

00:25:04: See you next

00:25:05: time.